unknown 0:07

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome back everyone. Here we are, another episode of Shift Ed Podcast coming to. I have a great guest just right across our Canadian border to Ontario. Tom DM Domanco is coming in to chat with us a little bit. He's recently closed his office door and is headed on to different things, uh, retired from the rigor memor of the system, but has been really amazing in looking at AI leadership and consulting around that, which I think is such a huge need across our country, not only here in Quebec, but everywhere. And Tom has great experience, 35 years in education, from classroom to system leadership. Eventually became director of education at the Ottawa Catholic School Board, and now is doing some great work with AI. Now, I don't want to get into AI right away, Tom, but I heard that you started off as a soccer player and that that was the course you wanted to follow. Unfortunately, it, you know, dreams don't always come true as we want them in our heads. But you went into soccer and then into general managing soccer. What of those aspects of that coaching did you bring into education that you found were so crucial in your development as an educator and a systems leader?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, thanks, Chris, and pleasure to join you today. And you're right, I had no intention of being a teacher. And the reason for that is both my parents were teachers. So as a 17, 18-year-old, I saw how hard they worked. I saw them working every weekend, every evening, and I said, I don't want that for me. I want to play professional sports. And my dream was to be a pro soccer player, but I blew out my knee in my last year playing university soccer. And that dream came to an end. It was a serious injury. But I did a master's in sport administration after that and was still involved with professional sports and ended up being a general manager of Ottawa's pro soccer team, the intrepid, back in the late 1980s. So it was great. It was I was fulfilling a dream, but the league was not going to be around forever. And I needed more stability. I just got married and had a mortgage, and so I went into teaching. I left uh that career and and became a teacher. So I think I definitely took things from that experience into the teaching role. Some of the key areas were having your own integrity, making sure that you're standing up for your values and the ethic of hard work, because there was a real need to work hard and finding values in what people brought besides just the traditional education route. Uh so there was a lot I brought into that uh that first year.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Yeah. And it's always tricky too when you're you know adapting and stuff. I too commiserate with you, both of my parents, teacher, grandparents, teachers, great grandparents, teachers. So you you almost feel like it's your calling, but as a teen, that rebellious, like, I'm never gonna do it they do definitely resonates with me, as you were saying. So as your role kind of grew within the classroom, um what was it that you're what kind of shifted your mindset uh in classroom for like getting more of student involvement, more student voice? Because I've read a lot about your classroom practices, and they seem to be quite um innovative or ahead of the times. How did you how did you come to that that you wanted more participation? You wanted kids doing more, you wanted to hear from them more. Like, can you open the doors to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Sure. Yeah, my my first year teaching was really hard. I I had a when I look back on it, a really unrealistic schedule. I was teaching as a first-year teacher math, phys ed, computer programming, geography, entrepreneurship, adult education, and economics. So just a ridiculous workload.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Just uh subjects.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, and many of them I had no no background. Like I had never studied computer programming. I didn't know anything about computers when I started. I was a phys ed teacher. You know, that was my that was my studies. Uh but what I found was that I really gravitated the most to the students that needed the most help, but didn't ask for it. So, you know, I there were a lot of students that would do just fine and do well without me getting engaged. They were gonna learn the content, they were gonna do quite well. And because I didn't have the background in computer computers that I needed, I found early on, and with that, both the computer programming and the entrepreneurship course, there were real benefits to project-based learning. So this was 1990. And the project-based learning were the classes where I had no challenges, there was no discipline issues because the kids were engaged and everyone had a chance to learn, not just the kids that were good at memorizing and repeating facts on a test. Uh, I think that combined with my passion for coaching was really about learning to focus on engagement before focusing on the content or the curriculum. And so coming from that background with the pro soccer and then with project-based management in those courses, um, I really found that that was the way to connect with kids and to connections were and relationships were the first priority. The content came afterwards. And certainly sometimes new teachers have a passion for their subject, and that's why they get into teaching, but they may not have that relationship with kids because kids may not share that same passion for that subject area, and then you find you're dealing with discipline. So those would be the the key things. And my my background management and leadership, I love to read. I was reading nonfiction, I was reading leadership, organizational behavior, I was following people like Dr. Michael Fullen early on in my career, and really looked at how can that apply to what I'm doing? So that would be the the the the area it started.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah. And Tom, how did that follow you into more of the leadership roles that you started to take? So, like, how did you start translating that mindset you had developed within your classrooms and start leading that way? Like, what were some of your the things that you you incorporated in that leadership that that you expected from your teacher?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Well, I I loved being a teacher, so I think that's really important as well. That I loved every job I had in my career. So I love being a teacher. I a lot of people say VP is the worst job in the board or the division. I love being a vice principal as well. And I love being a principal and then moved on to different areas throughout the board. But I I think recognizing that you you can make a difference, but understanding what your sphere of influence is. So when I was a teacher, my sphere of influence were the kids I taught. Uh we didn't have the culture at the time where you were responsible for everyone in the whole school. That's where you want to get to, not just your classroom. But when I started, it was my classroom. So it was about being a family and creating that family so there was a sense of trust. And then you could get a lot more when you had trust, trust, and honesty. So, you know, whether it was student clubs or coaching, I was there. I was there to be present in the kids' lives because that then translated to getting a lot more out of the students in the class because you had a positive relationship with them. I brought that into the role of when I became a VP. So when I was a vice principal, it wasn't about trying to catch those kids that are breaking the rules. It was trying to connect with those students that were breaking rules and needed your help. And they, if they didn't have a relationship with you, didn't trust you, didn't feel that you had their best interest, then you were gonna have a real challenge. So, you know, if whether it was suspending a student because they had to be suspended because of a serious violation, I would say things to the student and to their parents like, you know, you you have to be suspended. It probably should be a three to a five-day suspension. I'm gonna really push for a one-day suspension so I can get you back as quickly as possible. So they saw you in their courts, they saw you wanting to help them. They still got the suspension because they had done something that warranted it. But then the follow-up was not about, you know, don't do this again. It was let's look at what happened and let's have a proper integration before you return to the classroom. Because it could have been a conflict with the teacher where they swore at the teacher. And, you know, you just couldn't have kids returning and not getting consequences. But then it was building on what caused you to swear at the teacher and what can we do so you have a better relationship and you understand each other. And I would work with the teacher the same way to say, let's look at what we can do to keep them in class. So things that really bothered me, you know, a kid getting sent to the office because they were three minutes late for class and they waited a half hour to see me in the office. So by the time they got back to the class, they had missed 35 minutes of that classroom. Those were things I realized quickly. I had to do something working with the adults in the building, not just the students who didn't have the capacity to always be on time. So I felt I brought a balanced perspective to the role of VP, supporting the staff, because staff worked extremely hard, but letting students know you were there for them as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Great. I love that. I was at a recent conference too, where we were talking about school culture and how to develop it. You know, we were looking kind of like through the lens of outdoor learning, you know, getting kids outside. I mean, that's one example, but like in your in your experience, how do you get cultures moving in a direction of a school? What were some of the techniques or or the ways that you would develop a culture within the school context?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, and that's such a challenge to develop culture because you can have a school where you have a very charismatic principal that does a lot and motivates everyone, and then the principal leaves and things just go back or revert to some standard practices. So I think part of being a, and this is really the responsibility of the principal to help build that culture for an entire school. So you have a team helping you. The team is the vice principals, your team is all the staff, but ultimately you're responsible. So it's creating structures. When you start to create structures, it doesn't matter if you're there or not. Once you leave, the structures are in place. So an example for a school culture, if you have a student council, but they have no real voice, they're just there and no one really puts any effort into it, versus a principal that comes in and says, I'm going to meet with the co-presidents or meet with the student council a minimum of once per month. And I want to hear what you're saying. And I'm going to give you an opportunity to meet once a month with our staff at a staff meeting. So you've put things in place so that you're really valuing student voice and agency. Now, when you leave, those practices are ingrained in the school. They're hard to take out. So I think that was a key one is putting structures in place and includes the having some fun in the social aspects of school. So working with your staff to say, how do we have some fun with our job? Whether that's giving booking time in the gym for staff that want to play floor hockey or ball hockey or whatever it is, or it's creating those staff socials. I remember some of the things that I implemented as a principal that started to create that culture of we're in this together. It's a tough job. We're going to have some fun when we're doing it. We'll make some mistakes, but we're here to help one another. So one of the things I implemented at our staff meetings, we call them different things from year to year, but one of the ones that I remember very clearly is compliment with a Coke. So I would go to the store and buy the old-fashioned glass bottle Cokes, and I would bring a six-pack to our staff meetings, put them on the table, and I say, okay, someone want to share a compliment for one of your colleagues, something they did to help you out in this last month. And they would pick up the Coke, they would walk over to someone, and they would just personalize saying something like things often I didn't even know about. I was having a hard day, I got in late, I had problems with what at home, and this person covered my class until I got there. And then they would they would jokingly say, Sorry, Tom, I guess you didn't know that. But I didn't care. Like I didn't care that someone was 10 minutes late because they were dealing with a family emergency. I cared that they had a colleague that was willing to cover for them, and the office didn't have to get involved. Um, so those were things like compliment of a coke. So you put in the structures that will build that culture for you. So when you leave, the culture remains. And often what we see is a strong principal leaves or a strong teacher leaves, and things fall apart because no one, no one else was there. It was all in that one person. And if you're doing your job properly, succession planning is key. You build leadership. We also had a culture of leadership without a title. So we had fabulous leaders who had no, they weren't department heads, they weren't curriculum leaders, but kids loved them and trusted them. So you build that succession and not having to have a title for part of the leadership.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

That's amazing. I love that idea too of just setting up the structures and then encouraging, supporting it, you know, because that's what would start to become all right. I hear a knock on the door and it's AI. I want to shift over a little bit to this because I think what you just said is super important. I just talked with um a UK researcher on AI and student voice. And having their voices involved in what's going on now with AI, we both agreed during that conversation that it was crucial. Do you find that we have enough student voice in what's happening with AI and education right now?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

It depends on the school, the school board or the school. So I'm I'm definitely seeing some school boards across the country or divisions or or districts that they have taken the time to have proper focus groups where they pulled the students in. And again, it's not performative because often we see we're gonna have some kids at an assembly and the kids talk, and the rest is all adults, and it's performative. But where they're really digging, they want to get their opinions and their viewpoints, and then what do they do with it? So, both from Quebec and Ontario, I've I've had the privilege of being part of some student focus groups, and it's important that when we ask those students their questions, then they're in a safe setting. They can share what they really believe and what they see. There's common comments that I keep getting. It's not fair that my teacher can AI can use AI and I can't. That comes up almost every conversation. And the kids talk about cheating, saying, I don't want to use AI to cheat, I want to use it to learn. Yes, I have a friend that I know uses it to cheat, and they were cheating before AI. So we get these common messages where there's real value when the districts are doing it properly or the school is doing it properly, is they compile that information and then they share it with their staff. So the staff need to say, here's what our own students are telling, not a Microsoft report, not a Google report. Kids in our school are saying this, and we need to have time to talk about it. That's where it has an impact with your staff. Even more powerful is when the kids can do it. So if the kids are comfortable, they come to a staff meeting, they give that summary after they received a little bit of guidance from the principal or vice principal or teacher lead. Um, but I am, I would say overall the kids are definitely ahead of the educators, once again, when it comes to the technology, right? But we're not giving them enough voice in terms of what should be happening with it in our schools.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah, totally, totally. And it kind of like opens that door or that question to teacher literacy, you know, AI literacy or educator, you know. I mean, it everybody needs to be certain way lyric around AI. Have have you noticed that teachers that possess a strong AI literacy can transfer that, or at least it starts to show in the practices within their schools? Like, I I'm so curious about does that pass over? Like, will teachers, if they have a strong AI literacy, actually start talking about AI beyond the tools and like what it can do? But like, what are the ethical? What are the security issues? Like, do you do you do you in your your experiences um see any of that happening where teacher strong teacher AI literacy can find its way to the students? So yeah, 100% 100%.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, for sure. The the the problem we have in in education across Canada with all our different provincial jurisdictions is everyone's doing it differently. Yep. And you know, in Quebec, you've got 20 ped days, uh, so you've got PV days in terror, you have seven. And if you don't give teachers the time to learn what AI literacy is all about, you can't expect them to teach kids AI literacy. So it's just it's just not possible. If you if the adult doesn't have the skill set, the kids are not going to get it. So we've got to start with our adults getting AI literacy. I was happy to see the national government invest in in Alberta and Amy, the organization to create a national uh AI literacy. My they've just released their first one in September. Four more to come, at least five there will be, which is great. So if a division or a district does not have the expertise about AI literacy, here's a ready-made program they can go. And as long as they can give the teachers the time, they can learn the AI literacy. And then you do need to look at how are we doing that with our students for every grade level. So we don't have three lessons that just go to the kids in grade 11, you know, the year five kids, that it's got to be everywhere, starting in kindergarten. So we've got to start with AI literacy early. But definitely we have to figure out how do you get that in the hands of every single educator. Uh, and then how do you get it in the parents and caregivers? Because whether a student is allowed to use AI or not at school, they're going home, they're using it. So when they get home, we need to make sure their parents and their caregivers understand here's how they have to use it properly so that you're not impacting learning in a negative way, and you're not impacting mental health and well-being in a negative way. So that literacy is extremely important.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed that too. I'll just wait, wait it. You know, it's like that saying of it's everybody's responsibility and nobody's responsibility, because it doesn't really fit into well, it can fit into all the subject areas, but it takes time to figure out how the fits fit.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Well, it definitely fits into assessment and evaluation. So because it fits into assessment, it fits into every single class because every grade level, every subject is doing assessment. And that means you need to redesign your learning tasks in the age of AI. You need to look at how you're going to use AI and how you're going to measure it. So I would say it's definitely the best when it every teacher has that skill set to bring it into the conversations and where we're seeing some failures in the systems, uh, where they're leaving it to a grade 10 computer science class or grade nine computer science class and assuming they'll take care of it. Or in the states where some are looking at, let's make it a graduate requirement, and you you've got to have the AI literacy to graduate, and then we talk about the portrait of a graduate. The problem there is from kindergarten to grade 11, you're you may not be talking about the portrait of a graduate and how it impacts learning. You're leaving it to someone in grade 12. So it has to be developmentally appropriate, but every grade level.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

And what do you think teachers' biggest misconceptions are about AI? Like, what's the hesitancy in wanting to know more about it so that you can in the end help your students with it? Um, you know, listen to their voices again. We'll come back to that. Like they're they're talking about it, they're engaged with it. It's a part of their societal you know interactions. Like what do we what do we need to do here, Tom? Give us your silver ball look.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Well, there is no silver silver ball or silver bullet to to solving it, but right it is a mind shift. So the mind shift that we have to still get in K-12 is that using AI is cheating. We've got to change that mindset. Because if I look at your doctor and your doctor's doing a scan of your lungs because you've gone for an appointment, do you want your doctor to use the 1,500 people that they've come in contact with to make that decision of what's wrong with you? Or do you want them to use that knowledge plus a database which uses AI to look at 9 million scans from 90 countries that it will inform their decision? I want my doctor to use both, not one or the other, but both. In farming, where they're using it in agriculture, in health, in all through medicine healthcare, people are not saying they're using it to cheat. They're using it to be better. So we've got to shift that mindset that when a teacher uses AI or a student uses AI, it's all about cheating. We want it to be about learning. So when it's about learning, it's it also takes this discussion away from the inappropriate use of screens. We assume that technology now is bad. And that's problematic in education because screen time can be bad, but it can also be extremely beneficial as an inclusionary practice for students that weren't meeting with success that will now, for kids that weren't engaged, that now can be engaged, kids that didn't see the authentic learning and didn't understand why they were learning something, they will now. So we've got to shift to it's not cheating when it's done properly. And you have that discussion with your students of how do you make sure it's not doing the work for you? And there's still some we're not surrendering our cognition or cognitive uh going to cognitive struggle. We're looking at all that together. And you know, the term cognitive offload is a good one to use, but kids have to understand why they shouldn't be cognitive offload, especially if they don't see any value in what you've given them.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Where do you see this going? I know I'm asking you to look down the road and it's moving so quickly, it's hard to anticipate. But where do you see it really fitting nicely into? I love the idea of it helps us with differentiation and making sure that all of the kids in front of us have access to what we're we're trying to do. Deliver or put forth. Where do you see AI like as something positive within the education system?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, I do see it as the potential to completely transform education. So we have not had a tool that had that potential. It also has the potential to deal with the work overload that is consistent in the education sector for every everyone, whether it's teachers, administrators. People are working way too hard. They no longer have balance in their lives. It's resulting in burnout. It's resulting in more sick leave. And kids have huge stress in their lives. So I do see it as an equalizer that can help in all of those areas. So that's the real positive outlook. It's the balance that it's not replacing the human relationships. We have 70 years of research that shows the number one impact of student achievement and well-being is human relationships that take place in the class. Yes, the administrators have a key role as well, but the number one is the teacher and the student. So good teaching is still good teaching. But we can use AI tools to make it even better to help when you give the example differentiation to help uh automate things that in the past they couldn't do, but making sure the educators know that you start with zero tech. You start with your human relationship, and then you use tech when it's going to enhance learning and help every student in your class. That's when you introduce the tech. And then when parents understand that, it makes more sense because I don't want to see classes go back to pencil and paper. Here's a worksheet to do your math homework or do your math work in class. That's bad pedagogy.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I also don't want them to digitize a worksheet and have it graded by AI. It's got to be pedagogy first. Where does where does tech help? And the AI will definitely help. How to can it help all the different accommodations that students need that a teacher cannot do for a class of 30 kids, but the AI can do? So that's where I see it going in a real positive way. Uh, as long as we teach those skills to our staff and to our students and our parents, then it has the potential to transform education.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Absolutely. I'm totally on that train with you too, Tom. Like it has to start with the humans, you know, what are our needs? And if technology can support those needs, you know, there might be a tool that could be developed, or you know, whatever. But it has to start, like I like you said, with with us, with the people, you know, and what are what we need. And I do see that as helping too. Like I've made a few simple chatbots that just give four different kinds of reading levels for a teacher, and just showing that one little thing, it was like, oh my god, like you can do that. And I'm like, Yes, yes, you can. So sometimes you can start small, but it has to come from a need of a human or a teacher in this case that we're yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Looking at what problem are you trying to solve as opposed to what tool are we trying to learn? There's a big difference. So it has to AI needs to be seen as an infrastructure. I I use an example in the presentations I do. If your your board or division has a focus on literacy, numeracy, and grad rate, those can be your three focus. That's great. That's that's going to give everyone lots of work, lots of things to aim for. If you've now added a fourth and added AI, that's the wrong approach. You want the same three, and then you ask the questions: how can AI as an infrastructure help us solve our problems in numeracy? Help us solve our literacy, help us with the engagement attendance problems that are low in grad rates. That's the approach that takes away from a new add-on that's another initiative, too much work that I don't have time to, to here's a solution that may help me with the challenges I'm faced with as an educator.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

I love that, Tom. Tom, thank you. Wow. I mean, we could probably, you know, go back and forth on this for a long time, but I want to respect our time. I really appreciate your insights into this. And I think that you said some really important things about forget about the tools, you know. I love, I love your your closing um argument. So, Tim, thanks so much. I appreciate your time. And sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Thanks, Chris. Appreciate the opportunity to share.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Thank you.