Chris Colley 0:14

All right, people. Welcome back to another episode of Shift ED Podcast coming to you. I've been really diving into our beautiful province of Quebec and this great dynamic we have of our English and French societies together, uh coexisting and figuring one another out so that we can continue coexisting from here to the end of time. And today I invited a great guest. I have Morgan Gagnon, who is um a part of Pert. And PERT is the provincial employment roundtable. It's a nonprofit here in Quebec, and they're a Montreal-based, and they really look at the labor market, do lots of research, um, policy briefs, and they also run a really cool mentoring program as well, or mentoring programs, I should say. But the research, um, I was at a Questgren, I guess they call it a summit or a symposium, I guess. And um her was there and they talked a lot about some really great research that they had. So I reached out to Morgan and she graciously said, I am gonna come on, and this will be my first podcast, and I'm gonna love it. So, Morgan, here you are. Oh, cool.

Morgan Gagnon 1:25

That's a pleasure. I've been called Cool, Great, and Gracious in the first two minutes.

Chris Colley 1:30

There you go.

Morgan Gagnon 1:31

Delighted to be here.

Chris Colley 1:33

Lots going on for sure. So, Morgan, can you kind of like set the stage for us a little bit? And how did you how did you get involved in PERT? What was your kind of your stepping stones that brought you into the position you are today?

Morgan Gagnon 1:47

Oh wow. Um great, big question. Well, me and myself, I uh studied in at Bishop's University, uh, which is a really interesting little English-speaking pocket of the province. Um, and then moved to Montreal for my master's. I studied philosophy in both. Uh, and then I started on Kurt's research team, which was really exciting, first and foremost, because social science research is pretty different than philosophy research. But we have a wonderful director of our policy and research team, Stockous Vwanza, who brings a really interesting lens to all of the research that we do. So we take on um oftentimes community-based research. So conducting projects that are grounded in the perspectives of and accountable to the community that they're that they're researching, in this case, English-speaking Quebecers. And I worked on the research team for about four years and realized that what I loved most about my job was working with all of our different partners to think up and bringing to life different projects, research projects and programming projects. And so I have since found my way into the development team, which does exactly that partnerships and programs.

Chris Colley 3:09

Amazing. Amazing. I love that research can tell us a story. Um and I think you guys do a great job at telling the story behind the research. And one of the research that I found like wow, is this $1.5 billion employment gap that we see differentiated between English and and French speakers? Can you paint us this story of of uh what this looks like on the ground? Like 1.5 billion employment gap a year, right? They're looking at like if things stay status quo, this would be a gap that would exist. Can you add some words to this story?

Morgan Gagnon 3:55

Let's get technical. So we for a long time in in the province of Quebec, we saw trends that saw English speakers faring better, group of English speakers faring better as compared to Francophones in the province. And in the last couple of decades, we've seen an inversion of that socioeconomic trend. So English speakers are faring worse in the labor market. And that can mean higher poverty rates, higher unemployment rates, lower income rates, those key markers of socioeconomic status and often economic and community vitality. You see English speakers faring worse and therefore occupying a more precarious position in the labor market as compared to their French-speaking counterparts. Uh and where the $1.5 billion number comes from, we did, I think it's exciting. It's also very technical and statistically heavy. So I anticipate that maybe not everyone is as excited as I am by this report, but I think it's very exciting. Uh, we did a really technical report in partnership with the Social Research and Demonstration Corporation or SRDC, where we said there are some differences between kind of the profile of English speakers and the profile of French speakers. Uh so for example, English speakers tend to be more highly educated or have higher rates of attainment at the university level, those kinds of things. Uh, we also have higher numbers of immigrants in the English speaking population as compared to the French-speaking population. So you might say that sometimes on its face, when you're doing a comparison, you're doing an apples to oranges comparison. But if you smooth out those differences, so you control for those different features, we see that those gaps uh persist. The gaps in uh in in unemployment and in income, they shift around a little bit, but they persist, which tells us that language is is or linguistic identity is a key piece of this puzzle. And when we calculate the fact that English speakers have this all things equal, higher unemployment rate, lower income, uh, and we compare kind of if they were to be fully active in the labor force at the same rate as French speakers, we see that that would translate into that $1.5 billion number, that that would be an addition that this equity would bring to the labor force and to not only English speaking Quebecers, because narrowing those um those gaps is in the the interests of of community members, but also to the to the province because it brings more economic capital to the to the province itself as well. So it's it's really a win-win, is what I'm saying.

Chris Colley 6:54

Right, right. And like is this like when you present these findings, like what are people's reactions to it? Like it seems like a lot of money. You know, like possible, you know, I guess it's possible money, but like what are people's reactions to when you put something like this out out there in the ether for people to kind of sift through and digest a little bit?

Morgan Gagnon 7:20

I think it depends on the person. I think for some people they have along the lines of the reaction that you're describing. Oh, it's a it's a no-bringer. Um, closing these gaps is a good thing. It's kind of mutually beneficial to all the key players. Um, but I think for other people, a lot of what our work has consisted of is myth busting. So Purdo's about five years old. So we're relatively new. We're you know, we're entering kindergarten, the first grade, if we if we were a child.

Chris Colley 7:56

Preschool.

Morgan Gagnon 7:58

And so for these past five years, we've been building our research base and building our evidence base. And a lot of that has been compiling the statistical evidence, the quantitative evidence that documents these gaps, because I think it's a deeply held understanding oftentimes in the province that uh because English speakers historically are once were occupying this quite socioeconomic elite status, that that status has persisted. And it is true that there continue to be wealthy individual English speakers, but on the whole, the community, the trend shows that the community is getting worse. And I think that is a really big surprise. And I think we see that when we say these these numbers sometimes, there's a bit of maybe a bit of shock or like uh uh intrigue in in what we're saying and how we arrived at these at these figures.

Chris Colley 8:56

Right, right. And can you guys point to reasons why? I mean, I guess that must be system-wide, like it just it's a part of the system or the how things are set up. Were there clear markers as kind of pointing to reasons?

Morgan Gagnon 9:15

Yeah. How much time do you have?

Chris Colley 9:18

Um give me the top two or three.

Morgan Gagnon 9:21

Absolutely. So far and away as you might not be surprised, and as the statistical data shows, when we do this kind of smoothing for difference, language and linguistic identity uh features prominently in it the the existence of these gaps. Uh, but what we oftentimes want to understand is the why behind that. So the quantitative data illustrates that there are gaps. We want to understand why there are gaps. Uh so for that reason, that's where a lot of our more community-based research comes in, talking to people to understand their perspectives and their experiences. Um, so we've done a couple major projects to dig into this community surveys, interviews, et cetera. Uh and the major finding is French, perhaps to no surprise. Um but what I think is really interesting is that there's a lot of nuance to the way that people might identify French as a barrier or as a challenge or as an opportunity if we're thinking in a more positive mindset. So, for example, some people say, and the data shows that French language competency can be an issue. People might not have the French level necessary to enter into a specific job. You know, they do the interview, they're they're not really able to navigate it effectively. Um, for other people, it's a confidence issue. They maybe have their level of French necessary, but they're not confident deploying it. I could also be a range of other things touching French. So, for example, for a lot of specific professions in Quebec, think doctor, lawyer, engineer, things that are regulated, uh, there are tests to enter into those professions. And everyone, English speakers need to demonstrate a level of French sufficient and and vocabulary specific to that profession to enter into the into the that specific role. So maybe you are generally good in French, but you don't have a technical vocabulary you need to enter into your industry or to network with with francophone professionals. All of these things that that touch on language but are quite nuanced, I would say. So that's the, I think kind of the primary bucket. And then there are a lot of other challenges. Access to resources and information in English is a big one. Uh, so being able to access employment services in English, um, kind of on the flip side of that, access to French language learning services. And a lot of these issues are stratified differently across different groups. So, for example, um, we often see that there are worse socioeconomic gaps for English speakers in the region. So living further from urban centers in Quebec. And these individuals or these communities will also report. And we see from the brick and mortar data that there are fewer, say, French language learning centers in these areas or adult education services or um Jeunesse en Plois, maybe you have to travel three hours instead of, I don't know, maybe 40 minutes on a metro if you're in the far reaches of the Montreal urban area. Um and so there are these kind of general barriers, but the way that they uh I like to say like ping pong off of different people's identities, demographic and geographic, are are very different. Kind of can count the structures.

Chris Colley 12:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, those barriers you you also have need to know, want to know, right? That was uh another research report that you guys put out where it it kind of shows those barriers that you were just explaining, that it's not just language barriers, there are a lot of other barriers that exist out there that that influence this. I love that your stories, how you're turning data stories, Morgan. So beautifully well.

Morgan Gagnon 13:25

Thank you. Our our uh director of public affairs, Cad Walcott, always loves to talk about the the sticky stories. Um because you you know it's it's one thing to hear a number, it's one thing to hear 1.5 billion. But unless you have a face or a reality that that captures, it's uh it doesn't stay with you as yeah, yeah.

Chris Colley 13:51

Making it human, eh? And making it like here's something I would, you know, I live where, you know, like where you can identify with parts of it anyway.

Morgan Gagnon 14:00

Exactly.

Chris Colley 14:00

I love that. So if we look ahead a little bit, yes, 10, 15, 20 years down the road, what are we how are we getting ready? How are we getting ready for this? There's so much changes that have gone on, you know, in our society as of as of recent. Um, things are shifting, uh, healthcare, AI, trades. I mean, um where are the jobs that will be actually paying a living wage down the road? If you could paint that story for us a little bit, Morgan?

Morgan Gagnon 14:37

That's a great question. I fear I do not have a perfect answer for you because the in general, the labor market is in a state of flux, but I think the changes, both that major shifts are having. So Quebec talks about the transition numérique, which is like the digital transformation and the shift to AI, what those changes look like, we haven't fully seen, but also what those changes will be, I think, change day by day as things like AI development, AI develops, I should say. Uh, there are also other provincial priorities like the transition vert, so transitioning to a more green economy. Um and that can look like a change in jobs, but that can also look like the changing nature of jobs. So, for example, if a vocational training program is training um auto mechanics, uh it's maybe shifting their education to focus on EVs a lot more. Or in addition to, I guess you said just the gas-powered vehicles or regular vehicles, if I can say it. Uh so I don't I don't have a clear answer for you because things are simply changing so quickly. And I think the question of what things would look like tomorrow is very different in and of itself than what things would look like in 10, 20 years. Um, but maybe what I will highlight is we have a couple of interesting projects looking at how this is not the specific language we use in the project, but I think they could be summed up, is how we create resilience in our workers and oftentimes in our youth. Uh, so we have a project, for example, looking at the soft skills that employers value and a need in the in the labor market. And a lot of discourse right now is emphasizing soft skills as a an important complement maybe to AI literacy or a component of AI literacy simply because it might suggest the critical thinking skills you need to engage in in artificially generated um content, images, creation, those kinds of things. Um so what we're interested in looking at the maybe some of the building blocks there.

unknown 17:03

Yeah.

Chris Colley 17:04

Yeah, because that's it's definitely something that uh educators need to start being aware of if if we're we're we're in the process of uh preparing our kids for this future. And we always have this quain phrase that we're we're preparing kids for a future that we don't know yet. Um and the soft skills, I mean that's it seems to be like we're heavy content oriented a lot in our educational systems. And the soft skills and voc tech as well, right? Like vocational training and stuff seems to often get overlooked. And having a push towards soft skills, I think super important. Do you guys like look into research around that? Like, is there do you guys have active research or looking to research where you can kind of look at how soft skills could be more integrated or or what ones that are most crucial right now? Is there any evidence out there that kind of leans towards one direction or another?

Morgan Gagnon 18:04

Yeah, we uh so we have a couple maybe exciting projects that I will tease. One is the the project I just mentioned. It's conducted in partnership with Vanier to dissect is a little graphic. But look at examine a specific soft skills framework and make that really digestible to employers and to users to say we have understandings of what say problem solving skills are or creativity looks like, but hear concrete examples of what this looks like in the workplace in a way that I think it makes it easy for people to actually envision. And then we transmit that data, in this case with our partners with Benny, to help them inform the programming that they're doing with their youth to help them prepare uh explicitly for the labor market. Um but I think part of what you're talking about was really interesting in is uh maybe next door to Perth's uh wheelhouse is how we're preparing youth. Because Pert is is focused on employment. When we're dealing with youth, we're often dealing with youth, you know, maybe 15 and over, often 18 and over working age youth. Um, but I think what you're naming is what is upstream of that, the way that we're not only educating kids and and teaching them different skills and and showing them skills at the post-secondary level, but at the secondary and and elementary levels uh as well. So this is less of our of our wheelhouse, but I I suspect it's kind of bar within learns wheelhouse.

Chris Colley 19:36

Yes, absolutely. Well, and we get informed, like I mean, that's the beautiful thing about um our English community within Quebec is that we rely on one another, right? Like we support one another with findings and like best ways and best practices and strategies, and so that we can maintain uh support, you know, for our Anglo learners. Um there on PERT also there's mentoring that takes place, right? And you kind of are alluding to that a little bit. Is the mentoring um so it's it's it's for like your your ending teen years kind of, but like what what are some of those what does it look like if somebody was interested in in getting support or mentoring? How does how does Pert manage that? Like what's the program like? Can you describe it a bit? Yeah.

Morgan Gagnon 20:27

So Pert has a mentorship program called Circonflex, um, tagline where accents don't matter, uh which I think is very sweet. And the idea is that we speak, we speak, we pair individuals who are French language learner, aspiring francophones, uh, with francophone professionals, firstly, to help them to give them a mentor with whom they can, they can practice their French, but also kind of set really specific goals around their French development and kind of identify plans and track those goals and in regard to their French language development. But we also try to pair them based on industry and region. Region just so that it's easier for people to meet in person if they're interested. But industry getting at something that I named earlier as a barrier is to help people not only find a match with whom that they can practice their French, but whom they can develop French skills and vocabulary that are specific to their interests and their uh their industry. So, for example, uh comparing to the best of our ability, maybe an English-speaking student studying social work with a French speaking, a francophone social worker so that they're able to talk about not just French development generally, not even just the professional vocabulary of social work, but for example, the French test that English speakers need to pass in order to enter into the order of social workers. Um To help expand the professional networks of our English speaking community members, which is really, really exciting.

Chris Colley 22:09

I think it's I love that idea.

Morgan Gagnon 22:12

Something that I, yeah, it's funny. I think I have loved maybe most, maybe that's too strong of a clip. But something that I really, really like about my job is working in the weeds with our mentors and mentees and hearing um the individual stories of growth of mentees is really lovely. But it's also really, really, really cool to speak to the mentors and hear them say, like, I love French and I'm so excited to help somebody else develop French skills. Or like, I came to Quebec 20 years ago and I didn't speak a lick of French and I learned it. And now I'm really excited to give that back to somebody and show them a culture that I have become a part of and that I love. It's really heartwarming.

Chris Colley 22:55

What a beautiful note to end on, Morgan. I mean, during this storytelling, I just want to thank you. Like, it's just so an enlightening and and and people please, like listeners, I'll put the link to Pert on this cast so that you can go and check it out. Because they have, I mean, this is one a couple of researches that we we touched on today, but there are a ton of we got a lot of reports and really enlightening stuff. So if you're into um research and looking at the story behind it, uh they do an amazing job at that. Morgan, thank you. This has been really informative and yeah, oh you made me a lot smarter today, that's for sure. So I appreciate that. We live in this province and so much happens behind the scenes, and like we're like, and then somebody can like kind of pull all the pieces together and it just yes, okay, it makes sense. So thank you for that, and all the best with Pert and all the projects that are coming up. And I mean, when the the next slew of research comes out, you're gonna come back on and we'll tell more stories about the research and the people behind the research.

Morgan Gagnon 24:10

That would be lovely. We'd love nothing more.

Chris Colley 24:13

You did a great first podcast too.

Morgan Gagnon 24:16

Ha ha, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for guiding me through the process. It's been uh it's been a delight.

Chris Colley 24:23

Awesome. Take care.