Welcome And Why Outdoor Play

Chris Colley 0:13

All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Shift Ed Podcast. Coming to you from Frigid Laval this this morning. But we're gonna have a very heartwarming conversation about outdoor play. I have Louise Delanois, who is a PhD doctor, who is the also the executive director of Outdoor Play Canada. And you know that this podcast, we've been talking a lot about outdoor education and getting our kids outside more because it is a we're almost at this crucial point in time where we need to get them out more playing. So Louise is the perfect person to come in here and and tell us a little bit about why, the benefits, and also like how we can support that more within our communities. So Luise, thanks so much for for joining us today.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 1:05

Thank you so much for having me.

Chris Colley 1:07

So Louise, I I kind of just wanted to ask maybe a little bit of history behind Outdoor Play Canada. How did this come to be? What was the nucleus behind it that that wanted to have this kind of countrywide Canadian outdoor play initiative enabled so that hopefully, you know, I mean, I saw your mission statement, it is to get kids out more. But can you kind of bring us back through time a little bit and talk about kind of like the history of and where this came from?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 1:40

Sure, I'd love to. So the idea behind Outdoor Play Canada has been around for some time, but it really took off in response to the 2015 position statement on active outdoor play.

Chris Colley 1:53

Right.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 1:54

Leading up to that position statement, there were a number of different researchers, educators, policymakers that felt like perhaps the direction that society was going was not supporting children's health and well-being. And that perhaps we were over-bubble wrapping our children, that we were putting too many rules around what children can and cannot do outside, that that the these types of behaviors may not actually be in favor of supporting children's healthy development, and that pushing kids indoors may not actually be safer than letting them be outside unsupervised, playing with their friends. But at that point in time, you know, all these thoughts were circulating, but there was no centralized piece of information of consensus on this is actually true, that beyond sort of general sentiments, that there's actual evidence to support this. And so to search whether or not to see whether or not that was actually, there was evidence to support that hunch. Dr. Mark Tromblay, who uh is the president of Outdoor Play Canada and one of the founders, worked with a few other colleagues. They collected evidence, they deformed two systematic reviews, they used that to inform this position statement. They brought on 14 organizations across the country to create this position statement. They circulated it to over 1,600 stakeholders from Canada and internationally and said, What do you think? Does this resonate with you? And ultimately they landed on the statement that outdoor play with its risks is essentially essential for healthy child development. And so that position statement, and it goes on a little bit farther, but that position statement was really sort of the starting point point for outdoor play Canada. Because first of all, it was something that, you know, this is this is evidence based, this is an evidence-based statement. And it was being taken up by local municipalities, by schools. It was leading to shifts in prioritizing outdoor play. It was finally one of the first strong pieces of evidence to say this is important, and we have the evidence to say why it's important. It led to a BC Supreme Court or informed a BC Supreme Court decision. A municipality was being sued by a private citizen whose child was hurt on a playground. And the position statement was used as social fact evidence to overturn that case. And the biggest thing is that it led to the recognition that there are a lot of different groups that are interested and invested in outdoor play, but that there was no central hub to bring them together to identify common challenges and then work on those challenges together. And so that's that's where outdoor play came, outdoor play Canada came about was to sort of serve as that central hub.

Why Kids Go Outside Less

Chris Colley 4:49

I love that. Could you talk to us a little bit about what are these barriers? Like something changed over time. Like, I don't know when or but like as a child, I remember going out all the time and having to be yelled at to come in. And suddenly there is this shift through my kids too. I started to see it like this less outdoor connection. What are some of the things that happened over our history here that that has led to kids playing outdoors less?

The New Global Position Statement

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 5:29

Yeah, that's a great question. And unfortunately, I think a lot of what started outdoor play Canada remains as ongoing challenges. So obviously, the the main thing that everyone thinks about are is screen time and cell phones and online presence. There's just such a draw for kids to go to those devices. But actually, Jonathan Haidt, who wrote The Anxious Generation, just published a survey where they found that children actually wanted to go outside and spend time with their friends just in like a hangout time, but they didn't have the social supports to allow for that. And that the only spaces where they could hang out with their friends unsupervised was on their phones. And so it's fascinating because children actually want this. But I think a few things that have happened in societies, I mean, first of all, there's that social pressure of if you let your child roam freely, there's judgment by other parents and other community members because it's not something we've we've moved away from that. So it's no longer normalized behavior. So there's that social pressure of even being allowed to do that. And that's further reinforced if you're part of any minority community, there's a greater risk of being of child productive services being called on you. So, you know, lots of sort of layers upon layers that make that more complicated. I think that as communities, we, though I feel like we move to getting to know our neighbors better during the pandemic, I don't see that having long-term effects. And so if we don't know our neighbors, if we don't know our communities, then we don't feel safe letting our children roam freely and go to the park and, you know, knocking on a neighbor's door if something were to happen. And so that's something that is definitely has eroded over time. I think, you know, if we step even farther back into the 80s and 90s, as parents became both parents were working and having fewer kids, you end up focusing more of your resources on ensuring that your child grows up successfully. And I think that overfocus, not just I think there's you know evidence to suggest this, that the overfocus on ensuring that your child succeeds in every piece means that you end up over-scheduling, over-helicoptering, over-observing, and lessening of that allowing for unsupervised time, unstructured time, playtime with other children. So it's it's a, you know, the trouble is this is a multifaceted, multi-component intersectoral challenge. We have society issues. We also have cities that are not designed for children. You know, we have highways and we have busy roads. We have it's more difficult for a child to walk safely on a road to get to a park, to a community center, to hang out with their friends. Um, you know, all these things have things have sort of come to a position where kids are just not spending as much time outside as previous generations.

Chris Colley 8:40

Yeah. And yeah, I mean, we see that a lot. And I I it comes back to what you said at the start of this bubble wrapping of children a little bit, you know, like in it's it's it's it's created this barrier, basically, right? So the position statement on active outdoor play it seemed to be speaking more urgently now than ever before. What what's behind that urgency now that we have that you know, I mean, you've laid out a pretty cool history of the the how it's kind of gotten eroded. What is that the the active the position statement urgency address?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 9:23

Sure. So I think if I I'll sort of build off that question a little bit. So the 2015, I keep referring to the 2015 position statement because we just recently launched a global update to the 2015 position statement.

Chris Colley 9:37

Yep. That just came out in 2020 2025, right?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 9:41

It did, yes, in September.

Chris Colley 9:42

Cool.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 9:43

Yeah. So back in 2015, when that position statement came out, at that point in time, the statement said outdoor play with its risks is essential for healthy child development. And when it came out, the Canadian Pediatric Society and Parachute Canada were two organizations that were around the table helping to develop that position statement and ultimately felt that they were not comfortable signing off because of the phrase with its risks. Now, almost a decade later in 2024, the Canadian Pediatric Society then came out with their own position statement on the essential importance of risky outdoor play for children's health and well-being. And that was in response to almost a decade's worth of evidence on how essential outdoor risky play is for children's health and well-being, where they specifically state that things like broken bones are within the acceptable level of risk. Of course, Canadian pediatricians do not want kids to have permanent long-term damage, but a broken bone is often sort of a sign of pride that you've done something super cool and now you get to hopefully have a cast that you your friends can sign. Like, yeah, exactly. And so that came out in 2024. And so, in response to that, and we also saw other position statements coming out both in Canada and internationally. Scotland has their own position statements, so does Australia. I think Wales does as well. We felt like perhaps this was now an opportunity to do an update. Because what we were seeing was that outdoor play wasn't just essential for children's healthy development, but we saw its benefits across all ages. And we saw its connection to not just healthy development, but connection to nature, to learning, to social connection, to those community relationships, to human rights. And so we thought, okay, let's do an update. Let's make it global in scope, let's make it encompassing of all ages, and let's explore the benefits of active outdoor play beyond health and development, including health and development, but also beyond. And so that's what we did. It was an almost a three-year-long process. We had an international leadership group with representatives from every continent, 143-person steering committee. We went through three rounds of international consensus-building surveys and landed on this updated global position statement. And so I think, you know, speaking to your point of urgency, what we're seeing now is that we have not just there's not just the concern of bubble wrapping children, but also this disconnection from nature across all ages. We have this disconnection of how to actually foster learning in an inclusive, accessible manner. We have this recognition of this disconnection from community, again, across all ages. And not that act, not that active outdoor play is a silver bullet, but is something that actually touches upon all of these different, sort of both local and global challenges. And it can be a starting point. So if you bring a child's outdoors into nature, first of all, they're going to be more active. They just will be. They'll have more opportunities to lead their own inquiry, to think about why is this snow different from that snow? You know, why have the leaves changed? Why are the birds out when it's sunny and cold versus when it's cloudy? You know, it's all of these different questions that I think don't naturally come about if you have an overly structured indoor environment. And so it fosters children's movement from an early age. It fosters their inquiry and their creativity from an early age. It helps them build community. And all of these behaviors last into adulthood. And so if we start with fostering active outdoor play from an early age, not only does it help sort of these long-term lifelong behaviors, but it also means that there are parents who are supporting that behavior. And so it should extend across the lifespan.

Chris Colley 13:45

Right. And Luis, is this a global problem? Or are we just seeing this in like industrial areas more? Or is this something that you can go pretty much anywhere and you get exposed to this, you know, this removal from the natural world a little bit?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 14:03

Yeah. When we started this project, we kind of assumed it was mostly a developed world problem, but it unfortunately isn't. Sweet, our our colleagues from Ghana were saying the same thing, that they were saying a disconnection from outdoor play, that kids were not spending as much time outside as previous generations were.

Chris Colley 15:05

How do you do that? How do you how do you leverage all of these different players involved in wanting to do this, but uh doing it collectively instead of little pockets here and there? Like what's what's what's Outdoor Play Canada's kind of stance on how do we leverage all of this information that we have collectively to be able to make change happen within our communities and society? A big question, right? Let's solve it all right now.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 15:38

Yeah, exactly. No, it's it's a great question. And I think, you know, so we did things like in the physician statement, we had a series of calls to action. And we we actually called had calls to action across various sectors. And so I recognize that that's almost like a siloed approach, but it's also all together on one page. And so when I speak to different groups, when I speak to, you know, government groups or early child education groups or not-for-profit groups or school age groups, I speak to their calls, the calls to action for their specific sector, but also the other ones, saying, you know, you are also part of a family, part of a community, part of a municipality, you know, you're influenced by policy. And so I encourage you, you know, to look across all of these calls to action. We we sort of divided them because we felt like that would be a useful thing for each sector. And it is useful even in my own, you know, discussion with these groups. If I can pull this out and say, this is what we say we we've identified is important for your group. However, this is an intersectoral challenge. And so can you see yourself in these other areas? The other thing that we've done is we've launched a five-year project called the Canadian Center for Outdoor Play, which is a research practice policy collaboration between Outdoor Play Canada, a childcare program here in Ottawa called Andrew Fleck, a local college, Algonquin College, and the Chio Research Institute, as well as the University of Ottawa. And so we intentionally brought research policy practice together under one roof. We actually have offices all together to think about how do we address these complex issues. And so, with that collaboration, for example, Andrew Fleck is leading an outdoor-focused childcare program. It's in a brand new building on 500 acres of forested land. It's absolutely gorgeous. And with our research institute, we're looking at the benefits of that program for children's health and well-being, the health and well-being of educators, how parent perspectives on outdoor play and risky play evolve. With Algonquin College, they're leading professional development to ensure educators have the confidence and competence to deliver quality outdoor play and learning for earlier children. And then Updoor Play Canada is serving as sort of the convening body for this collaboration. And we've since expanded that work to explore how to support children with disabilities in outdoor play and learning in natural spaces. And so that's sort of one route is you know, think about who are the others. We've we've thought about who are the others that are involved in this work. Can we bring them together and can we work together on solutions? And like I mentioned before, if we can get children outdoors into nature early, you know, that is sort of what we see as sort of one small solution. And then at the same time, as a result, we're having educators going outside on a regular basis. I was just speaking to someone yesterday who we have a clothing lending library at the Canadian Center for Outdoor Play for both children and adults. And this new educator, I'd donated a few things. And I noticed that she was wearing a sweater that I'd put into that library. It didn't fit me well. And I was, you know, I'd lots of my clothing is our hand-me-down. So I was happy to be able to pass that along. And she said, you know, I've been in Canada and then in Ottawa 20 years, but I never really spent time outside. So I didn't have clothing to keep me warm. And this is a warm sweater. And it's, you know, very, very helpful. And so, you know, by virtue of this collaboration, we have introduced methods for adults to spend prolonged periods of time outside and to think about what they need to be comfortable. And perhaps that's sort of a small approach, but we have sort of larger ambitions with this project to think about how to ensure that this work doesn't just stay in Ottawa. But I think it's, you know, it's first of all, it's bringing those groups together to think about what are our common common challenges and how do we work together to move the needle a little bit forward.

Chris Colley 19:35

Absolutely. I really love that idea too. And small, small, small things make big differences sometimes, right? And if you have a lot of them happening, you get that momentum that happens as well. Maybe bringing it a little bit back and it to the educational sphere. How do you help educators move away from this fear? Because it does seem like there's a bit of fear of that's that's kind of broader kids back indoors for security and safety. And like the outdoors has turned into this kind of like I don't know, Armageddon or something. How do how do you get how do you start to build that trust that it's okay and that administrators are encouraging teachers, do it? You know, you're not you're not wasting time out there, you're not, it's necessary, it's a part of nature's plan, and we're kind of interfering with it, with this overprotection. How can we get nature more at the forefront and that the decision makers trust that this is the right move to do when it seems like they're doing the opposite, where they're pulling them in and like, oh, risky play? I don't want to have to deal with parents getting upset if the kid falls off of this or that. When those experiences, as you mentioned before, are crucial in an early childhood development sphere. So, how do you get how do you break that stigma of the outdoors being risky for our kids when it is necessary for our kids?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 21:16

Yeah. So when when I had conversations on risky play, the first thing I always invite adults to do is think back to their own childhood and think about to think back to a you know, a strong childhood memory that they have. Chances are it was outside, it was probably with their friends, there probably wasn't a whole lot of adult supervision, there probably wasn't a whole lot of structure to those to those experiences. And to reflect on if that was such a valuable experience and think about, you know, what did you gain from that experience? Why is it such a strong memory for you? Wouldn't you want that for the next generation? So, you know, start step one.

Chris Colley 21:56

I like that.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 21:57

But yeah, the the second thing. Is that I have so many thoughts. So in the earliers, educators, not of course every childcare program, but a lot of them have really embraced this idea of risky play. And it's easier to support risky play outside because children can adjust and can engage in risky play according to their own abilities. Risky play is not about throwing a child, regardless of their ability, off of a tree. It's about allowing a child to reach that level of uncertainty that is relative to them. And so I always use the example of growing up. We had neighbors across the street. They're this similar age as I was. And we often climb trees. I was a bit of a scaredy cat kid, and I would get to the very bottom branch, and that was enough for me. I could feel that thrill. I got a little, my heart was pumping. I got my sweaty palms going. And I felt like I accomplished something by even getting to that very bottom. The youngest of the three kids from across the street would be at the very top of the tree, swaying. And that was the level. She's now a firefighter, so maybe not surprising. But, you know, that's the level of risk that she that she felt comfortable with. She never fell. You know, the last time there was a serious injury in Canada as a result of falling out of a tree? Not one in the last 20 years. Not a single one.

Chris Colley 23:26

It's so rare, right? This fear we have, but it's such a low percentage of something, you know, harmful happening to the kids, right? And kids are designed for rough and tumble. Like their bones are more flexible and like like it's just nature's thought about all this and designed us for this rough and tumble and risky play, which we're we're afraid of, in a way.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 23:53

The other thing is that allowing children those opportunities is essential for helping them become independent, resilient adults. There was a recent randomized control trial led by my colleague Mariana Brussoni and some colleagues out of Europe, where they actually exposed children to risky situations using virtual reality. And what they found was that those children, the children who they had two different settings, a playground setting and then an urban setting. And in the playground setting, those children that took greater risks in the playground were better at safely crossing the street in the urban environment setting. Pretty strong evidence to say that one translates to the other. And so by insulating children, by trying to protect them too much when they're young, it actually could potentially lead to them having more dangerous situations situations and outcomes in other environments and when they're older. Wouldn't you want a child to expose themselves to something risky and then learn how to overcome that, learn how to get around it when the stakes are really low versus when they're 17, 18, going off to university, for example, and suddenly don't have the tools to manage those things on their own, fully unsupervised by adults?

Chris Colley 25:13

Right. That's a good way to put it, actually.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 25:17

Exactly.

Chris Colley 25:17

And so they carry this stuff, right? It's yeah.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 25:21

Yeah. The other thing I say to educators is that if the Canadian Pediatric Society, if they are saying this is essential, then I I don't, I can't think of anything's like any piece of evidence that's stronger than our pediatrician saying you this is essential. We have to be supporting our our children in doing this. And then the final thing I would say is that okay, if you're like, okay, fine, let's figure out how to do this. But my principal, my superintendent are, you know, there's some resilience, resistance there. There are a number of resources now available largely for free. So back to Mariana Brussoni's group, outsideplay.org. They have a free tool for both early child educators, educators, and parents to think through different risky play scenarios. And it's sort of like an introduction to risky play. They have additional tools to introduce more outdoor play and learning in school systems. And actually, she just published a book on introducing risky play into school. So there's there are quite a few resources out there if educators are introduced interested in introducing this, and you can sort of access it at different levels of readiness.

What Gives Hope And Next Steps

Chris Colley 26:33

Amazing. Such great information that you're sharing with us today, Louise, and and and totally necessary, and I'd also say urgent. But what brings you hope of the future? Are you where do you see those things starting to happen or you know the the letting go happening a bit more? Let's let's send this on a on an upbeat. Where are those pockets that you're seeing where where things are are starting to realign back to what kids need to develop themselves with nature?

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 27:11

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I actually have a quite a bit of hope. So there are a few really cool things happening in Canada. I mean, first of all, with the global position statement, we've really positioned Canada as a leader in promoting outdoor active play across all ages. And I we're working with different communities to sort of say, okay, we've done this, let's let's think about how we can actually action this. The second thing that's really cool that's happening is the free-to-play initiative. I don't know if you've heard about it, but Community Foundations of Canada has led this 32, has just announced this $32 million initiative to support active outdoor play and risky play in communities across the country. And so there's major investment in Canada to actually support municipalities in doing this work. And that feels like a big leveraging point moving forward. It is amazing. Through my just communications and network building in response to the position statement, in response to this large announcement by the community foundations, I've spoken to teachers who are interested in introducing more risky play into their school systems. I've been chatting with uh some colleagues out of the UConn who want to run a bit of an intervention program. They see this as essential and they're they've their administrators have bought in. We've seen similar things in BC. I think even I'm I'm sure you heard right before the holiday break, there was there were those new insurance guidelines in Quebec about snow mounds, that if you had a snow mound of like 1.8 meters, that children have to wear helmets and line up and only slide down in a certain manner. And while that's obviously discouraging, it was very encouraging to hear that the premier of Quebec was like, this is insane and has gone way too far. And so I think while trends in society sometimes we feel like they're step back, steps back, I think I'm we're also seeing quite a few steps forward in supporting children's children's plays. So I I actually think that there's a a lot to be very optimistic about.

Chris Colley 29:23

I agree with you on that too. I've seen that and I see the pockets getting a little bit bigger as well, and more of an interest there as well. That I think educators are coming around, and also principals, because in the end, you know, your your principal oversees what happens at the school and is ultimately responsible, that they're letting up a little bit more too, and starting to see that it's beneficial for our kids. So I think voices like yours need to be heard, and I was such a pleasure having you today, Louise, talk about getting kids out and getting them playing. It seems so easy. It seems so easy, but it surely is not. But I'm glad that we have advocates like your organization out there to help support the reasons behind and support communities that are wanting to take that leap in how how to go about it, or so I appreciate that. Thanks so much for your your time and your wise words. I've learned a ton just in this little conversation. I'll share all of these resources too that you had mentioned on the blog post to listeners out there. So if you want to have a look at the information that we talked about, just I'll link it up to our conversation. Um Wonderful.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 30:39

I think that's well, the last thing that I'll say is that it it actually is kind of easy. And something that I've heard from educators who bring plain learning outside time and time again is that there's that initial hurdle of getting outside, but once you're outside, it's easier. Like there's less cleanup. You don't have to, you don't have to clean up the sticks and the stones and the acorns and things. So there's there's and there's more energy and inquiry engagement of of children. It's just that just get outside. Step one.

Chris Colley 31:13

That's it. That's it. I always say start small, make your plan ahead of time. Doesn't have to be big, be 30 minutes to start, 20 minutes, have an intent, but just do it, you know. And and I agree totally with you. Teachers told me time and time again, too, once they stepped over that and they just did it, there was no going backwards anymore. You know, like it had to be a part of something they were gonna do in their practice. So there are a lot of these little bright spots, and I think the more and more it'll light the whole everything up. So we're there, and thanks to people like your organization helping us along this journey. So thanks again, Louise. This has been a real treat. And uh well, I wish you uh a warm uh weekend, stay warm and but also get out there and and play. Thank you.

Dr. Louise de Lannoy 32:01

Great, thanks so much for having me.