Chris Colley: 0:14

All right, people, here we are, another episode of Shifted Podcast coming to you. I'm not reaching very far. I have Med Kharbach who's coming in, a PhD. Matt is also an educator researcher. He is the founder of Educators Technology, which is an amazing website full of great resources. I'll definitely put it in the description of this podcast because you'll want to go check it out. And as we might guess, Matt has been dealing a lot with the AI, the panic to make it more purposeful and also ethical in its practice. So I was very excited that he accepted my invite. And well, Med, thanks so much for this. I'm really excited to talk to you today.

Med Kharbach: 0:58

Thanks, Chris. I'm really happy to be with you here, and thanks for having me.

Chris Colley: 1:02

It's a real pleasure. So, Med, before we start, maybe I'd like to ask you of a couple of memories that you have about your educational journey so far that kind of brought you to where you are today and what you're doing today. What were some of those moments that you could tell us about where how it brought you to your current position?

Med Kharbach: 1:24

Yeah. So I I started as a language teacher. So I started as an EFL English as a foreign language teacher back in Morocco. And at the time when I was teaching there, the web, or what they call the web 2.0, what just I mean, just the revolution of the week point oh with just starting. It's around 2000. And so I created this blog who nobody knows. And I started sharing a tidbit on how to use technology and social web to teach English. And that's how I started. And in parallel with that, I was doing a lot of work in pedagogy and teaching, in educational topics related to teaching and pedagogy in general. But then when I moved to Canada around 2006-2007, I did my master's in the mount and then the PhD, the project that I started in Morocco as a small blog showing teachers how to use technology to teach English grow exponentially to be a large online platform for teachers from all around the world where I share and review ed tech tools that help with not only teaching language but in teaching in general. So that was around 2010. And now fast forward to 2022 when ChatGPT and generative AI was becoming something that everybody talks about. And now I kind of see the relevance of this technology to what I've already been talking about all these past years, about ethic and the importance of technology in teaching. And so I transitioned my focus, including my academic research, to focus on the use of AI in education, especially given that teachers now are in, as you put it, in a panic mode in regards to how to use AI in their teaching. So that's in general the background context to where I am right now, or to how I get here.

Chris Colley: 3:36

And again, amazing, amazing blog, amazing resources that you create and share with everyone. Did you have a feeling that AI was going to disrupt so much in education? Did you feel that when it was coming on? That wow, this is this is another tipping point, like you said, Web 2.0. But did you anticipate the the the growth of it and how big it was gonna be, how much it would impact our system?

Med Kharbach: 4:09

Yeah, I I kind of uh given that my experience in reviewing uh ed tech tools for many years, I I knew right away that this is uh a technology that is completely different. W as you know, we we we did have AI way before. I mean, since the uh introduction of this of algorithmic uh thinking in in tools like uh search engines in Google, they use AI and Netflix kind of recommendations on YouTube and all so we did have AI before, but the new thing is generative AI, which is something that we did not have. I mean, or we did not have as sophisticated as it is right now. So I knew that we are in front of a very transformative kind of technology. So a technology that you can just prompt and then gives you a written essay that is almost human-like. That's something we never had before. So I knew the disruption is gonna be real, really, really big for education. So I started working on it, started reading a lot, I mean, doing research, talking to people in the in the industry and talking to leaders, to educators, and we've been having very fruitful discussion about the impact of AI on education. But definitely, AI or generative AI in general is not totally different. It's different from the Web 2.0, even the Web 3.0. So we are in front of a very transformative uh period in the cycle of education. I I would say even that we we're starting now to talk about pre-AI or pre-generative AI and post-generative AI. So just for practical reasons, when I say AI, I mean generative AI. So we don't have to say it all the time. So yeah, so we're talking about education, pre-generative AI, and then we have another form of education, or at least there is now a picture of a different landscape of education that is now forming because of the disruption of generative AI.

Chris Colley: 6:18

Totally. And another thing that's occurred, which I've noticed, and and you've produced some interesting materials around this, is the idea that we've gone from you know just digital literacy to now AI literacy. And you've always been very upfront with it's not about the tools, right? It's really about you know being literate when it comes to AI. Could you kind of spot uh shine a little bit of a flashlight on what is AI literacy that that that we should be aware of as educators as we bring our kids through this new, you know, these new platforms that exist out there using AI?

Med Kharbach: 6:59

Yeah, Chris, it's true. So I I've I I always say this, uh, and I really mean it. So AI integration education is is is is basically a literacy issue. That that's what I've been saying all the time. And it's not a tools issue. And I mean, framing it in this way, I think it changes the the conversation because uh it takes us away from just talking about apps and tools and helps us focus more on understanding what's actually going on when we use AI in teaching and learning. I I from my own experience in the world of ethic, we don't want to repeat the same mistake we did before when web 2.0 was just uh being released and revolutionizing the the internet. So we're we're not gonna focus only on the tools. We want to focus on the literacy. I mean, and by literacy, I uh I'm not just using it in this narrow sense, which is the ability to read and write. It's in I'm using it in a more broad sense, which means just the the same way we talk about digital literacy, media literacy, or even assessment literacy. And so uh it means here just the uh ability to develop knowledge and competencies in a very specific area. So this kind of knowledge that you develop in a specific area helps you act with more judgment and understanding. That that's the general kind of meaning of literacy here. And so if you look at AI literacy and how it's defined by major organizations like UNISCO and Teach AI and even the U.S. Department of Education, and I have shared a lot of these definitions on my LinkedIn, all of these diff definitions they point in the same direction. So AI literacy involves a combination of knowledge, skills, and attitude. So it's kind of a trio. And you need to understand how AI works at a basic level, at least, and then you need the skills to use it responsibly, of course, and effectively, and then you need the right dispositions, which means the mental framework or frames or mindset, things like critical thinking and ethical sensitivity and things like that, to be able to use AI in a very effective and ethical way. So so the problem that most teachers, I think, and it's understandable that they focus most on tools, and there is a real sense of pressure, I I know, but new tools, you know, they appear every week. We have tons of tools flooding the market. But I mean, there is a feeling that somewhere out there that there is a magic tool that will solve everything for teachers if only they find him, if only they find it and they find the time, which is not true. So but the truth is very simple. And and I I think it's much more reassuring that teachers do not need all these tools. And for most educational purposes, I would say just knowing how to use generative chatbots like Chat GPT or Cloud or Jimina is enough. So so that that that's that's basically what AI literacy is all about for me. It's about knowing how to use AI more efficiently and in pedagogical ways, and rather than just focusing on the tools themselves. Absolutely.

Chris Colley: 10:30

And and you what you mentioned too is very um like I have a lot of these conversations with educators about well, what tools should I use and when and how? And and I was I'm similar to what you're saying is like just get comfortable with one to start, you know, like your chat or your Gemini or your co-pilot. What how do you kind of like help? Because we're getting flooded all the time with new tools, as you mentioned. How do you get to a point where you decide, okay, this tool is worth using versus yeah, I'm gonna ditch this tool? Like, is there a process that you go through when you evaluate an AI tool?

Med Kharbach: 11:08

Yeah, so as I as I said first, there are many, many tools, and I get a every day I get many emails from those uh platforms and and and those companies, AI companies asking me to promote their tools. And I and I and I have uh and and I always always have the chance to see and and and and examine many tools that are now in the market. And I see that most uh what teachers really need is a a chatbot like ChatGPT or Gemini or Claude. Uh I I personally uh like ChatGPT more, but I mean Gemini and Claude there do the same thing. So if a teacher knows how to uh write well-crafted prompts, they know how to use prompting techniques, then that's all they need. Probably they might need another tool for uh uh uh generating visuals. And even now for generating visuals for classroom use, the the the uh nano banana pro in Gemini does a really wonderful job generating visuals. I mean, again, if you know how to be very detailed in your prompts, then you can get it to generate very amazing visuals that are that can be good for our classroom use. But other than that, uh I don't see that many of the tools out there they use the same technology that Chat APT or Jim and I or Claude are already using. But that said, I would also I would also say that I want to make this clear, but there are certain tools that are designed specifically for teachers and students. And these tools they can kind of which I I look at them as providing teachers with the shortcut. I know teachers are busy, they are there is a burnout, they are the least thing they have now is time to go online and look for tools or even to master the the art or the scale of of prompting. And so these kind of tools they provide teachers with pre-made templates that they can use, for instance, to to quickly generate lesson plans, to integrate standards, to generate activities, things like that. So there are certain tools that make it easier, but it's no different than the ChatGPT or Gemini or what Cloud does, except that it provides a pre-made template for teachers. Tools like Magic School, School AI, Ed Cafe, and you know, Kerapod, Brisk Teaching, all of these schools are around, and some of them are used now in schools in North America, here and in the States. But again, as I would say they provide some help, but if if teachers know how to prompt, they all they need is chatty or chatbots, that's all. And when it comes to thinking about which tools to use or not, I always provide teachers with a checklist of questions to ask before using these tools, meaning to ask about the privacy, how does the tool uh collect data and where it it saves this data and what kind of age appropriateness of the tool in regards to students using the data and certain certain functional kind of aspect of the use of the tool. Other than that, I always recommend that teachers focus on uh how to use the tool and not which tool. Yeah, totally. I love what you're saying.

Chris Colley: 14:30

And man, I mean, one of the things, and you've been talking about this actually, we talked before we hopped on here, on on your LinkedIn where you're looking at assessment a little more closely around AI. And we know that there are mindsets out there that AI is a cheating tool within within education, right? And teachers are trying to, you know, lock things down, get like AI detectors, which work horribly badly. Like that is how do you approach assessment in this age of AI? What what kinds of recommendations or suggestions could you offer to our listeners about that assessment can change in AI, but for the better?

Med Kharbach: 15:13

That's right. So uh again, I w when I talk about when I discuss with teachers the quote problem of assessment, it's always a problem of literacy, just like what I said about AI. It's an a literacy issue, it's not a technical or tool issue. The same thing with assessment. So I like to frame it under the broad umbrella of literacy. So we do have an literacy and assessment literacy problem in teaching. And and here I have shared some some tool or uh I shared the guide yesterday on assessment literacy, simply explained, and I based the guide on the works of two very uh established scholars in the assessment literature. They are James Poofham and Richard Siggins, and I like their work. They have been doing some amazing research in the field of assessment for years and years, probably over 25 years ago. And so, and and there is this book by James Pofham that was published in 2018, so way before Chat EPT was out, and he talked about the problem of assessment literacy. And he said that teachers, when they were, I mean, trained, the teaching programs they were trained on, did they not, they were not trained explicitly on how to design assessments. And so most of the teach teaching programs now, they do have a weak spot, which is assessment literacy. And so that's way before even Chat GPT and generative AI. Now, and I can relate to to what to these bold kind of statements uh Profin made because when I was having my training as a teacher, we did not have something called assessment literacy as a course or anything. So when we were when we went to the classroom, we have to figure out how to create an engaging assessment for our students. And so we were kind of engaged in a trial and error process with our assessment techniques. Anyway, so with generative AI now, the problem of assessment that Kufam talked about in 2018 and before becomes even more pronounced now. And so now we have a tool that a student can use to quickly answer any kind of question. Now, the problem is it's not about the tool, the problem is about the design of the assessment. So now we have a problem of the design. We need to rethink, to reconceptualize the concept of assessment in general. So the tasks and the assignments that used to work before Chat GPT no longer work. So we need to look at other ways to be able to assess students' understanding and their learning outcomes in a genuine and authentic way. And we've been having this discussion, and there's a lot of people, teachers talking about new ways, old ways being now rejuvenated, like the use of oral exams, presentations, you know, the uh focus on process kind of process-based assignment at tasks and not product-based assignments. I mean, we we already have these discussions before, but now with AI they become more important. However, that said, my take towards AI and assessment, I would say we need to look at assessment as a I like to talk about a hybrid, a hybrid kind of approach. There are certain assignments that that we can allow students to use AI to work with. And there are certain assignments if we want to really kind of evaluate it generally how the understanding of students independently of AI, then we can do some kind of assignments like in-class proctor exams that we can do with students to know what they are really, their actual understanding. But for most of the time, formative assessment, that is assessment for learning, the assessment that we do on a daily basis with students to help us understand how they are learning on the spot as the teeth as the teaching is going on. These kinds of assignments and assessment, they uh we can use AI with it. We can we can also design tasks in which students can use AI to help them do the task, provided they document the process of using AI. So what I like to do with my students is I would say, for instance, well, okay, I have this assignment. For instance, let's say it's a project-based learning assignment. Say, okay, we have this project, you're gonna work in it, you're allowed to use AI, but you need to show me how you used AI in the planning, in the decision making, in drafting, and everything. So you need to document the process of using AI and we can have a discussion about it. And so we do not need to ban AI completely. We just need to think again about the design of assessment and design assignments that are AI friendly and design also assignments that are that do not support the use of AI. So that's how I like to think about it when it comes to AI and assignment. Totally. And assessment.

Chris Colley: 20:22

I love what you're saying too, that we're not looking just at the end goal, we're looking at the whole journey to get to you know the end result, right? And who is so used to right and wrong, it's very difficult to look at process or to retrain us to look at process, which kind of brings me to my last question, but and and thanks so much for this. It's super insightful, and I love your words. Where do you see this future going for educators? Like, you hear certain things like, okay, um, you know, if you don't use AI, AI will replace you. And like, like, what do you feel, in your opinion, the future of education is with AI that's gonna be there, we like it or not? What's what's your feeling on that? Where do you see us going with with this new mindset that we have with us all the time?

Med Kharbach: 21:15

That's true. I like to see it. I like your word and you said the new mindset. That's that's exactly how I like to talk about it. You know, when we had the pandemic, the COVID-19, and there were lock, schools were locked, and we were, I mean, obliged to stay at homes, and we have this kind of new reality. We're we're talking about this new normal. So that's exactly what's what's happening right now with AI in in education. We are now witnessing the birth of a new normal in education. And and I have this discussion with teachers about AI, the danger of AI, replacing teachers or replacing major things that teachers do. And I and I think uh I always think that teaching is a little bit different because at its I That the essence of teaching is there is a social and relational part of effective emotional part of teaching that is very hard for AI to replace. And so, because we as teachers, we deal with students as social human beings, and and which AI does not know. We know a lot about our students, their context, their social backgrounds, I mean, their affective and emotional states. I mean, even inside the classroom, their body language, the looks they have in their eyes when they are talking to us. This kind of contextual and background knowledge is very important to teaching. And this kind of knowledge is only accessible to teachers who are teaching in the trenches. So AI does not have this access to this kind of knowledge. And so no matter how developed it becomes, it will never replace the social, effective, emotional aspect of teaching. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm very much optimistic about AI, and I strongly advocate for the use of AI in teaching and research. And there have been a very vocal voice online and LinkedIn. I get a lot of, you know, I get into heated debates with teachers and you know, with educators about this. But I do see a lot of I do see the huge potential of AI in education and research, and I encourage teachers to embrace it, to work with it, and to integrate it into their teaching.

Chris Colley: 23:29

Amazing. I love it. I'm a big AI fan, but I love the human aspect of teaching, but I also like that it liberates a bit of my time so that I can get more of that human interaction, which is, like you said, at the crux of teaching itself. So I I totally agree with what you're saying on that, Matt. This has been fascinating. I I'm sorry that we don't have more time, but I would love to continue this conversation with you. It's been really enlightening and you've made us all smarter, Matt. So thank you very much for joining us.

Med Kharbach: 24:02

Thank you very much. Thanks, Chris, for having me. A really wonderful discussion, and thanks for the questions. They piqued my interest to think even further about what they have been dealing with all this time. Thank you very much. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye.