Chris Colley: 0:10

Welcome back everyone. We are here on Shift Ed Podcast looking from a looking out for amazing locals that are doing amazing things in our area. And today, today, I have a really special guest, Steve Leckman, from who's the director and instructor at the coyote program or the Pugham Coyote, if you want to frentify it. And uh Steve is here to kind of share the importance of outdoor ed, why we need to be aware of it, and why we got to get our kids out there more. And we'll also talk a little bit about the services that he offers to not only schools but to everyone here in Quebec. So, Steve, thanks uh for joining me here today.

Steve Leckman: 0:59

Thanks for yeah, inviting me, Chris. It's a pleasure. Yeah.

Chris Colley: 1:02

Yeah, it's well, Steve, this is not our first uh our first chat. We've done a webinar and we've done also some collaborative work together, and so it continues on. Steve is a uh a great guy, a very kindred soul, and a very interesting outdoor guy who I keep telling teachers that outdoors is so crucial for our littles, and if they don't get out enough, it just has these negative effects on them. And some of the research, uh, which is staggering to me, uh, is it shows that kids today are spending less than 10 minutes a day on unstructured outdoor play. 10 minutes, less than 10 minutes, which is nuts. So, Steve, we're we're we're losing this childhood outdoor movement, uh, connection, stewardship to nature. Like, it seems to be getting less and less as we get more and more into this technology world of ours, you know, where screens seem to be the first world that kids are exposed to and not the real outdoors where nature is. What how did you first of all get involved in in loving nature so much? Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to be director at the Coyote Kaydu for Coyote programs and maybe a little bit about how you as a youngster played outside?

Steve Leckman: 2:32

Yeah, sure. I mean, wow. Yeah, short and sweet, I'd say. I think it was my parents when I was 16. They like, they knew they, you know, I had the love of the outdoors already, like definitely some you know, free time in little wild spaces in our neighborhoods. And then when I was a teen, they were like, you're not spending another summer playing video games and street hockey, you're going on a canoe trip. And I was like, no. But they forced me and uh I got into it. And then I fell in love. So really it was the immersion, I think, that really hooked me and the feeling of just like the vitality, the health, the community spirit that develops from a canoe trip. The first one was 19 days. Yeah, and then eventually I like worked for the company and just you know went down this rabbit hole of survival skills and then into nature connection, which kind of like brings that really fun content to the contemporary world and and makes it relevant and practical for education. So yeah, it kind of kind of came from there. So shout out to my parents, you know, and that teenage years when like they still have time to like force your kid to do something that's good for them, you know.

Chris Colley: 3:44

They did just before my yeah, seven. You know, where you're like, I'm out of here. But yeah, kudos. So word out to Steve's parents, um, and and parents play this crucial role in this, right? Because most of the time their parents are the ones that start exposing their kids to the outdoors more than you know, educators or you know, anyone else. It's it's through parent influence, I'd say, a little bit.

Steve Leckman: 4:10

Yeah, your household. It's like the the role model, yeah. Totally. You're patterning yourself off your your parents, yep.

Chris Colley: 4:16

Yeah. So we've we've come a long way, right, from those canoe days to you directing this program. How did how did the coyote program come to be? Like what were what was how did it, you know, how did you breathe life into it and it it becomes a pretty powerful group and program that you offer to Quebec students?

Steve Leckman: 4:38

Sure. I think like after, you know, really falling in love as a teen with the the great outdoors and wanting to help protect wild spaces, I I saw the disconnect from the urban city, the urban centers where nature is like this abstract thing that's super far away and it's like this nice idea and it's like this pretty picture kind of thing. And so I think was definitely, you know, very motivated by by seeing, well, firstly, like the benefits to the individual and their like health and their well-being, their mental health, physical health, and then just knowing that if you if you don't have that kind of love for the land, you're not gonna take care of it. And seeing the need in the cities where we're like nature disconnect, ground zero. So this is where this stuff is most needed. Yeah. And so Katie programs kind of emerge from that like desire to do good and that vision of like, hey, we need people who even in cities who who nature is not this abstract thing, but it's this you can still people we want people to feel that sense of kinship with the land, even in the city. Yeah. Totally, totally.

Chris Colley: 5:41

You know, I remember this quote, and it was we can't expect kids to take care of our planet if they've never been attached to it, right? Like we can't be like, oh yeah, we screwed up as adults, but don't worry, the kids will take care of it. Well, in fact, no, they won't if they've never felt attached to it, right? And that whole stewardshipness comes into place where you know I feel attached to the world around me, and nature is, you know, that crux of a of a thing that I need to feel attached to if I'm gonna help, you know, solve some of these big problems that this planet's facing.

Steve Leckman: 6:19

Yes. And then how do we cultivate that attachment? There's there's the puzzle. Yeah, when we have what would you say, 10 minutes of unstructured time outdoors a day, you know, where it's like dwindling down to that. It's like slim pickings, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Colley: 6:31

How do you guys deal with that at at the Coyote program? Like, how do you guys uh make sure that kids well, I guess you can't make sure, but how do you hope that what you do attaches kids to nature more?

Steve Leckman: 6:49

Yeah, well, I mean, we offer we have like our in-house programs that we run on weekends. For the most part, we have homeschool programs that we do. And like, that's we're outside the whole day, you know. Like, sorry, that's like this is we have six hours, we're outside, we're like in it. Pretty much any weather, you know. And then our whole curriculum is designed to, you know, optimize the learning opportunities from that immersion time. So it's not just like sports outside, it's not just like it's not science, it's not super didactic all the time, but it's really dynamic and playful and exciting and engaging so that yeah, we kind of like set the participants up to yeah, really learn and feel connected and feel a part of the land. Yeah, that's really it. And then with schools, I mean it's tricky. You have an hour sometimes, you have half an hour, like how how to make the most of this, you know, in in that context. And that's a whole other, you know, set of tools, and and you know, so much depends on the on the actual program and the setup, but it can be done, it needs to be done, you know?

Chris Colley: 7:58

Yes, it's urgent almost at this stage in life, right? Like we've become so disconnected. And I mean, I was I was talking not too long ago with some preschool teachers saying how important the outside is for play for young kids, and you know, that play is their work, you know, as a young child. If you're not playing, you're not really growing or developing who you are. And I see that it's always seems to be attached to the outdoors that if I can get them playing, it would be outside. Yeah.

Steve Leckman: 8:32

Right. Yeah, there's this idea that we're designed for connection, we're hardwired for this. And you let kids outside. Yeah. So, like your initial point there about the unstructured time, like, what is the point of unstructured time? Okay. And I think about our programs, and like we have a lot of structure, like we have an agenda in what we do. Like, we're setting kids up for camping trips, we're learning skills, we're we're, you know, cultivating ecological literacy, we're dun-da-da. But and we have, you know, free time and that open space time and you know, kind of programmed in, you know. But so what's the benefit to that? And there's this part of our the model that we follow has this really like fun pedagogical kind of anthropological question it is that is about about unstructured time. And it's looking at universal child passions. So kids around the world, what will they do if you just let them loose outside? And it's so fun to do this, to ask a group of teachers this question and to brainstorm like, what's the list? And then that is our kind of like, that's our starting point. And it's like, how do we build off of that and follow those kid child passions? So it's like, you know, it's a huge list, but it's like, you know, jumping in puddles, throwing things, sneaking, building forts, tricking each other, playing games, playing make-believe, you know, trying to catch things, catch a butterfly, catch a frog. You know, the list goes on and on. And then and then it kind of illustrates how those things that we naturally do, the wild instinct in us, kind of set us up for these deep, rich encounters that draw out of us so many good qualities, right? So you need that time in in a kid's you know development. It's so precious, it's so like fundamental to our to our humanity, really.

Chris Colley: 10:27

Right, right. And and probably something that is not all that easy to replicate in the four walls of a classroom either. Like it really requires the child or the student to be actively outside amongst the trees and the dirt and the water and the yeah, like it, it's it's something you can't teach a kid, right? Like it's yeah, totally, totally.

Steve Leckman: 10:52

There's like this idea, like we we, you know, you kind of like you set a kid up to have a handshake with the elements. It's like they they have to go on that learning journey themselves, they have to encounter the bird song and the plants and then it's it's it's so rich, it's so nourishing for the nervous system of the kid, you know, it's so like sensorially complex, you know, being outside and being in it. Yeah, but so important. Yeah.

Chris Colley: 11:20

That wonder, Steve, like you get kids that come to you, I mean, from all over the place, you know, like different luggage, different emotional development stages. Like, what do you notice about what nature does to kids? Like, you know, when they finally get that exposure and they're kind of have that a little bit of taste of freedom of the outdoors. What are your observations about how the kids uh adopt it, change? You know, like are those observables that you can that you see?

Steve Leckman: 11:51

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's so much. I mean, where to begin? And then it like, yeah, we see we see like the kids feeling more peaceful, more calm, more relaxed, uh, like more engaged. They learn uh, you know, about teamwork, they learn uh about themselves. There's the curiosity that's cultivated, the problem solving, the creativity, the the connection to other people, the connection to themselves, knowing themselves. It's it's really profound.

Chris Colley: 12:22

It doesn't have to be complicated. Like what I'm hearing from you is that we have this expectation of oh, we gotta teach our youth and instill values and skill sets, and like as opposed to put them in an environment where nature will just uh embrace them and will develop all those things naturally without it being this, you know, curriculum or this structured, like, okay, I'm gonna show you guys how to love nature. Like it it seems easy in the sense that if you put a child in the right environment, naturally things will start to change within that kid.

Steve Leckman: 13:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that however the the role of the teacher or the guide is definitely crucial in rolling with those natural passions and then you know guiding it towards cultivating these qualities of responsibility and kindness and awareness, you know, like yeah, it's definitely like these little gentle nudges of like cultivating the conduct around these skills, which is really, really primordial, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, so so it, you know, like the teachers have to have and the guides have to have that connection themselves. They have to have that adventuresome spirit to role model it, that curiosity in themselves. They have to have that, you know, ability to learn with the students. Like the book of nature is so vast, there's so much to know. You can't know everything, but can you explore with the kids, right? And be curious and ask questions and and be flexible in your in your agenda, you know? And a big thing too, I think, which is like super key is like is games and playing. And, you know, the image that comes to mind is like the you get outside with a group of students for an hour and sorry, it reminds them of recess. You have to like run them. Like you're if you're gonna do like a little like didactic piece, even or like a story and another game, like you need something that's gonna like burn some calories because we're like domestic dogs that are out, you know, real the doors open and the dog is sprinting for the next 15 minutes before they like slow down to a trot and then slow down a little bit more, you know? So you have we have to work with that context too, which is super important. If we want to reach the kids, is like we gotta yeah, meet meet meet them where they're at for sure.

Chris Colley: 14:49

Yeah, I've heard like if you take kids outside for like half hour to an hour and you bring them back inside, they're super focused, you know, because they've kind of gotten the yayas out and they're ready to, you know, they have more time to concentrate than if you hadn't done that. So I mean, and the benefits are are huge, right?

Steve Leckman: 15:09

Yeah. And and like, you know, I have my anecdotal evidence, you know, and and teachers who do this, I think it's really valuable if they can like track the behavior of the students before and after and compare it to other weeks when we don't when they don't have the outdoor time, because it's super important. And those those books, there's so much research that has been done. It's important to know we we know this stuff, you know, like Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louvre. It's this collection of studies about what are the benefits. And then the the Quebec version of that is Perdu sans la nature by François Cardinal, which just you know, it's studies and it reinforces the points of like we we need to do this. This is so good for when, like we said, when they come back into class, they're gonna get more out of it, they're gonna be more engaged, they're gonna be more focused. And you know, a lot of teachers are like, oh, okay, this is a nice idea, is going out, nanna. I don't have time for that. Like, I got the pressure of my curriculum, I got this, nanan. And then what if it was the flip? You know, like what if it was like I can't afford not to do this, right? Because net they're gonna like there's it's gonna be like more efficient, you know, if if we weave this into our weekly schedule.

Chris Colley: 16:22

Yeah. I think two teachers, once they finally do bust that door open, they realize almost right away, you know, like within the first 10, 15 minutes of seeing their kids in a different environment and see them differently, right? I I was reading some research as well where they're saying the tough kids in your classroom become different people when they're outside, you know, when they have that opportunity to move and and you know, to to be out and free almost from from the clutches of the four walls. Right. The tough kids you're talking about, like behavior kind of yeah, sure. Yeah. And with with COVID too, like I mean, it's not that far away. Our kids kind of went through the ringer there. And we're seeing a lot of mental health issues and you know, screen time and technology and all that stuff. That yeah, there's a time and place for it, but nature will really help those anxieties and all of this luggage that kids tend, you know, seem to be carrying around with them with this anxiety and stress and really short attention spans. Again, opening those doors up can help r alleviate some of that.

Steve Leckman: 17:36

Yeah. One of the one of the activities that we do in our programs is called a sit spot where we sit in nature for silence and just pay attention and be present. And I love I love priming it with like, all right, everybody, this we're gonna practice one of the hardest survival skills out there, like making fire by rubbing sticks together, whatever, tracking animals through you know, any landscape, okay, that whatever. Sitting and being present. And they're like, uh. But it's like, oh my gosh, the rewards are huge. You got it doesn't, it's not always like picture perfect, and everyone's gonna have their own experience, but it's it's deeply nourishing. And it is like kind of the antithesis to what a lot of the kids are facing on a regular basis.

Chris Colley: 18:19

The the pack schedules, yeah, the screen time, the the hyper stimulation, you know, it's like yeah, and that's kind of a disconnection as well, you know, just from life around you, you know, and we get consumed by these screens sometimes. And yeah, Steve, give me a little bit of an idea and and the listeners, like what is it, what is your program offer? Like, and like what are the different tiers that you guys have in services that you that you provide to the community? Nice.

Steve Leckman: 18:53

Yeah, like curriculum-wise, it's kind of uh broken into three categories, like wilderness skills, ecology, and leadership. And we can kind of do any kind of mixture of that. And if we're left to our own devices, we're gonna do all that at the same time, all those different bits. And it's gonna be playful and it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be crafty. And we we tend to implement like a lot of different teaching styles, and we have these routines that we that we do in our programs that are kind of like optimize connection and awareness and presence and and community. Yeah. And so we with schools, we do all sorts of different, you know, kinds of formats. We we we definitely do like the class natural kind of thing, like the one-off activity. Ideally, that leads towards a series of activities or some kind of ongoing relationship. So like a couple of activities with the same class where where these routines of connection can really sink in and become normal and become like part of the student's regular educational experience. As opposed to just the one-off, like flashy inspirational thing. We want these habits of connection and awareness to really sink in and in these skills to develop, you know, and it it definitely takes time. So we've done like the all day activity at the school or meeting the kids at a local park. We go to Angrinal Park, we go, we have a site on a farm in the West Island, visit our partners in Gonawage, and we can go to the schools. That's really fun when we can, you know, go to the schoolyard and see what is the life around the school and you know, get inspiration and value what they have in proximity to them, you know? After school programs, camping trips, yeah, all sorts of things.

Chris Colley: 20:44

Anything to do with nature and kids, you got you dabble. You're in a little bit. And yeah, because I find too, Steve, like oftentimes teachers just need that like little bit of coaching, you know, like just walk with me for this first session, or you know, and then I'll I'll I'll see how the kids are and I'll see how it's you know, I'll I'll learn some stuff just through you coaching them or your you know, your other instructors. Is that something too that schools could reach out to and say, hey, can you just come and we're I want to look at our spot, you know, what what's our patch hold? Like what do we got here? Yeah. Those are absolutely do as well.

Steve Leckman: 21:25

Yeah, we do teacher trainings, yeah, accustomed to kind of like what what's you know within the capacity of the of the of the teachers there. Yeah, and oftentimes like when when we work with the teacher who has that extra spark of motivation and like curious curiosity, and it it's just the best because the teacher like brings it home. They revisit the topics that we brought up, or they work with us to kind of like make sure that we connect to the curriculum points that they're working with. That's the best. Not the teachers aren't always available for like that level of conversation, they want more of something like inspirational and fun, and but we we definitely enjoy that as well. Where it's like, hey, we're talking about these curriculum pieces. Can you just like jazz it up and like add some dimension to it? And yeah, we love doing that.

Chris Colley: 22:17

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, well, Steve, this has uh been a great chat. I I love what you do. I really encourage teachers to reach out to you and see what is available for their schools, their community. Because if we don't start reversing this trend of less than 10 minutes a day, yeah, we can't then expect them to find stewardship within nature if we don't expose them to it. So I think it's more crucial than ever, just all these climate change stuff. And you know, if if if if that's not a focus, I don't know what is. What's it's important.

Steve Leckman: 22:59

Yeah, I mean, it's I definitely have a lot of empathy for teachers because it's it's it's a struggle. It's very hard to like bring this to your to your classroom and to your institution that has so much momentum behind it. I definitely get a lot of hope from teachers who have that spark and that inspiration and who like hearing stories from them of them working together to troubleshoot things. Like, hey, like, you know, how do we make this? They have that value, they have that drive, they want to make it happen, but there's like this host of things to to work out. And when they collaborate together, I think they I've just heard so many great stories of teachers working together, troubleshooting like the gear, how are we gonna like time this properly, like get there and back in time? And I got these behavior issues to like, you know, anticipate and then how are we gonna work all this out? Yeah, but there's there's so much create creativity. I see like a big momentum of of teachers and schools and CPERs that are like valuing this and going for it and figuring it out, you know, like with that inspiration, there's creativity and you're gonna you're gonna make it work, you know? And you know, we're we're there to help. There's different, you know, there's so many different resources out there to help help this along. Yeah. And as you said, it's like it's so beneficial to the kids and in this world, it's like we have to be doing this. Like, let's let's get used to this and and uh like make it the best, yeah.

Chris Colley: 24:26

It's a necessity for sure. It's a necessity. And Steve, I love your your passion and and your stewardship also in this. You've made me a heck of a lot smarter just through our connections and our conversations. So I really appreciate that, and I appreciate you sharing your expertise with us today. Thanks. It's been a great chat. Take care of yourself, enjoy nature.

Steve Leckman: 24:51

Yeah, let's get out there. The snow's falling, we gotta get into the snow. Let's go.

Chris Colley: 24:58

Thanks, brother.