Chris Colley: 0:13

Welcome everyone back to another episode of Shift Ed Podcast coming to you. Um today you got a great guest, and she has been on this podcast before um quite a few years ago, but yes, I always was like, gotta have gotta have Catherine come back, gotta have Catherine come back. So I have Catherine Kora here from our uh the Center of Excellence for Behavior Management. Um and I wanted to just read the mandate because it's so important. Yes, of course and what there's what they set up to do is support school boards and schools, obviously. Um continuous prof professional development again on on um behavior management, research and development activities, which are crucial, and then also becoming that expert provincially on helping teachers navigate um our kids, uh our system. We know out there that it it is not getting easier. Um, I mean, I'm sure we say that throughout all the decades. Never easy. Teaching is probably one of the hardest jobs in the world. Um and Catherine's here to kind of help us make sense of all of this. Um so, Catherine, thanks so much for taking some time.

Catherine Korah: 1:27

Of course, of course. Thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Chris Colley: 1:31

Yeah, well, I'm I just I love your insight, and um, I love how you explain things, and then it kind of like we will have a deep exhale at the end of like how we go. Um, but I love I love how your foundation is is grounded in Gordon Newfeld, a lot of that kind of attachment theory and um what kids need. And I guess that's kind of my first question, Catherine, is yeah, what it what do our preschool, our fours and fives? I mean, we'll rewind even you know, one, two, three, fours, and fives. What do they need in life to develop into humans? Or they're humans.

Catherine Korah: 2:12

That's such a good question.

Chris Colley: 2:14

You know, like what are the the cogs that need to be in place so that yeah these children grow up feeling like they can contribute to our world?

Catherine Korah: 2:24

I have to say, and I don't think that it's intuitive, but I think the big the biggest thing that kids need is for us to not mess with nature's plan. And and what I mean by that is we have this focus at times as adults to try to instill in our kids everything that they need in order to grow up and and be, you know, um mature and and well-rounded adults. And the truth of the matter is is that um our brains are designed for that to unfold naturally if we could allow for the right conditions to be there and for the child to be receptive to to that you know, that potential, that growth. And so, you know, it's not so much about teaching kids, it's more about giving them opportunities for them to play, for them to, you know, be creative, be outside in nature, for them to feel safe with adults, for them to not have to work for the relationship, but feel at rest with the adult. And I think that when those things are in place, kids spontaneously become emergent, uh curious and whatnot. Although I have to say that in the last few generations, quite a few generations, the the i think there's a there's a few things in our culture that has messed with the way in which you know the plan is is meant to unfold naturally, which is uh our devices, our our um, you know, screens and social media and all of that unfortunately is getting in the way because play is is very fragile and it can easily be disrupted. And so I think kids are losing opportunities today that um that they, you know, compared to kids, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Um, but if we leave that aside for a second, uh yeah, I feel like adults need to remove that pressure of thinking that they need to instill everything. Once the relationship is there, the beauty about relationship is that there's ways in which the kids attach to us that will make it that they will follow or cues. We don't need to force it down their throat. But by the time that we they attach to us through sameness, which is the second level of attachment, through belonging, which is the third level, and through significance, wanting to be special to us, they will want to do our bidding, but we need to get to that place. And I feel like adults are focusing too much on trying to, you know, teach and teach, and and they're think they're talking a lot about skills and whatnot. And um, we we need to trust that you know nature is well done and that it has a plan. I mean, kids forever have been learning, and so why is it that we put on this pressure now for us to have to push the envelope when kids have always you know grown up and learned and followed the adults? So yeah.

Chris Colley: 5:14

I love that. I love that. And I mean, um it nature can take care of a lot of that, like you said, provided that we have we provide the conditions in which hundred percent they can feel at uh at ease at going off and playing. I mean, not too far from their parent or their love, you know, their attachment that needs to be there, but yeah, nature can take care of a lot of stuff. And I guess we're kind of getting to this this this pinnacle where kids are playing far less and going outside far less. Yeah. And like I know there's lots of distractions, as you mentioned, screens. How do we how can we start to counter that a little bit? Because I've I've I meet with a lot of parents and teachers, and it's always we have this discussion on well, what do I do? Right? Like, I don't want to have to fight every time with my child about screen, and it and it feels like a a big task to do, but we're seeing the negative effects too.

Catherine Korah: 6:13

I've got a 15-year-old at home, so I I I I can you know I I can empathize with the you know, with the with the screen time, but uh you know, I feel like at the same time, if we let go of the of that battle, then then it to me it's it's you know, everything is gonna go downhill from there. And so I think it is important for us to have those values instilled uh and and that we model it too, because that's I think that's the other piece where we get caught as parents, is that you know, so oftentimes um adults will use them for work uh or or even personal, but then the kids watch this. Um, and then for them, it's like it's normal to see, you know, their friends do it. They've uh I I know my daughter at school, they've got a computer that they use in class, and so that's normalized as well. It's it's a tool that they're that they're meant to use to do their academics. Um, and so it's there, it's it's omnipresent in our day-to-day. But at the same time, I think it is important for us to have screen-free times that we spend some time with our kids. That it's not just about telling them to get off the screen, it's also about replacing it with something. And so parents need to spend time with their kids doing, you know, I can't help but think that parents don't do as many board, you know, board game nights as we used to. I I remember doing that growing up, and and these are like these such precious, precious times that we we really need to invest in, even if we're tired. I feel like the other piece that adults against adults nowadays compared to generations before, is as parents are very much left to their own. I feel like the villages were grander before. Um, you know, I I can think of my grandmother who had nine kids. My mom was the ninth of nine kids. So she had her elder siblings that were there to help out in the neighborhood and the aunts and the uncles and the cousins and whatnot. I feel like adults, I feel like that's the piece I've noticed the more because I also do parent coaching. And oftentimes that's the piece I hear from parents. They feel overwhelmed, they're both working, then they come back from work, they have to hurry up to do dinner, get everything, you know, the homework, getting through everything, they're tired, they want some time off. And then you get caught up in that. Um, and so I feel like if parents can have a bigger village to help, you know, for them to be able to have that support and to rotate so adults can have a pause, then maybe kids will have more opportunities to be able to connect. And I don't mean for kids to be in more sports or more activities because sometimes parents will over-schedule their kids, they'll send them out to do all sorts of different extracurricular, and then the kids are exhausted, so so they're not connecting with their parents, but then when they come home, then people are on their screens. I mean, let's be honest, a lot of adults will say they don't do it, but then you go to the mall, you go to the restaurant, you you know, you watch people walk in the streets sitting waiting for the bus or wherever, people are constantly on their screens.

Chris Colley: 9:07

I know, I know.

Catherine Korah: 9:08

It's crazy, and so yeah, it's I don't know. I like the least start from there.

Chris Colley: 9:13

Yeah. And and over scheduling too. Like I like that idea that, you know, it's good for kids to be a part of communities and sports and stuff, but I mean, that's not typically play, right? When you have outcome-based, like all of our sports and everything, it's all it's not a child choosing freely what they want to do and how they want to do and who they want to do it with. This is controlled play. I don't even know why we call it play because it's such a confusing term at time. Could you elaborate on that a little bit, like play for just play sake?

Catherine Korah: 9:44

Uh you know, the the thing is that true play has three criteria. Number one, it can't be as you were saying, for work. The second the child feels like they're doing it either to win something, like in sports, there's a, you know, it's a prize perhaps, or if you're playing a board game, is there's a winner or a loser. Um, and so the moment that there's a goal where it's about uh winning or it's about pleasing, perhaps I'm doing it because I want to please mom and dad, um, then then it's no longer considered true play. So that's criteria number one. It has to feel free and creative, coming from the child. Um, and so no work. The other one is, oh, sorry, I'm I'm kind of confusing the second one. So the second one, first one's no work. The second one is it needs to feel free and creative. The second that a child is following directives and that it's it's too kind of structured, then you lose that essence. And I'll give you an example just to make it really concrete. So a child could be drawing a picture and they're in their creative mode and they're doing something for their pleasure. But the second an adult comes in and says something like, oh, that's so nice, or oh my goodness, what about this color or that color, and starts messing with the child's creativity or starts hinting that they they would, you know, that they like this or they like that, then it's no longer true free play. There's no longer that creativity coming from the child. Now it's about pleasing the adult.

Chris Colley: 11:09

You kind of take that away from them, man.

Catherine Korah: 11:12

Exactly. So it can't be work, it has to feel free. And the third criteria is um, where was I going? The third criteria is it has to be engaging. Um, and so I I recall years ago when Gordon did his theory around play, he had used the word fun, but then realized as he did his work on emotions, that you can do a lot of play that's emotional that could actually be very um not necessarily fun. It could feel very sad or very angry. And so it's okay that it goes in that direction. It just needs to feel engaging to the child. So the child is investing their time within that play mode. Um, and so that's what's considered true play. And there's many different types of play. I mean, a child can play through their emotions, they can have full of creativity and emergence, and that would be called emergent play. Um, and so there's many different categories of play, and many of those can be true play, but any of those can become work and be removed out of what is considered true play. Um, and so a video game is not true play, for example. Although it can be engaging and fun for the child, there's an outcome. And so that's not considered true play.

Chris Colley: 12:27

I love that too. Like sometimes I think our misunderstanding what play is. Um, but I do love that they put it a part of you know, the charter of human rights, that play is a right for all children. Like it has to be.

Catherine Korah: 12:40

Can't be a privilege. It can't, it just can't be. I mean, how many times in my career when I was a professional in schools and teachers would would say, you know, Johnny's done this and that, and so he's gonna stay inside today because going outside at recess is a privilege. My goodness, please, please, please. It's such a need. It's a need. And especially for those kids that, you know, that they do dysregulate and that their behavior goes left, right, and center, those are the kids that need the most play. The most play. I mean, I mean, we know now a bit more than before the benefits of play and how you know play helps us grow up. Um, I don't know if you're aware, Chris, but uh, in the last two, three years, I've been working with K4, K5 teachers to develop a toolkit with them and also some resources for kindergarten. And of course, thank goodness the program for kindergarten promotes play. Um, but right now with my colleague Martin de Mers, we're creating a document around play and helping understand teachers understand to what extent play is so central. And play is learning. Play is actually the first bit of learning for kids. We mustn't think that it's play or learning. Play is learning.

Chris Colley: 13:52

That's it. I always say, like, play is their work.

Catherine Korah: 13:54

I mean, it really is.

Chris Colley: 13:56

It it's it's how they're going to develop and get the skills they need by doing it. You know, it's like experiential.

Catherine Korah: 14:02

You wouldn't believe, you wouldn't believe my my good colleague Eva Dagostini, that you've met before and has come in and co-presented with you uh, you know, a few years ago, um, she presents on um on play and the the benefits of play. And one of the things that she'll talk about is the fact that we've got a left and a right hemisphere, and the right hemisphere is the section for creativity and whatnot. But what we realize now with neuroscience is that the right hand side of the brain actually develops through play and through music and movement and whatnot. And it actually is the first uh necessary foundation for learning. So learning, which comes in part from the right, but in part from the left, and the left-hand side is more detailed-oriented, but the brain will not leave room for the right-hand side until the the the left-hand side, until the right hand side has developed sufficiently enough. And so, all this to say that if kids haven't played enough, they're not ready to learn and to read and whatnot. And I think there's certain countries, like Finland, for example, that you know, they'll wait until the child is seven or eight before they start pushing reading because they know that the fundamentals to reading starts through play.

Chris Colley: 15:18

Right, right. Yeah. If you're trying to push it too early, you're actually gonna hold them back when they get into it. Correct. Right? So it does have a negative effect when we're rushing kids to develop. It's something like you said, like we have to let it sound so easy though, right? Like just let nature take its course. But yes, yes, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. Love them, feel make sure that they feel supported and that you're there for them and the love is there, but then let them just go and explore and stuff. Um for sure.

Catherine Korah: 15:51

The the other piece that we need to be really mindful of, and this was part of the the questions you had sent me originally, uh, Chris, was is kids nowadays have a hard time expressing their emotions. And I think part of it has to do, uh you know, in a in the sense with yes, for sure, digital devices and whatnot, but also with the pandemic that came. I feel like the pandemic, unfortunately, not only has it stressed the adults and stressed the kids, but the kids have also left live the stress of the adults. And, you know, now we're receiving the kids who actually were born and and started their first years of life in pandemic within our schools. Um, and so I don't know if teachers have noticed in the last year or so that the new kids that are coming in are not are are are a bit tougher than the kids we've had before. And I think part of it has to do with the fact that they haven't been exposed as much to play because of the screens. Adults had to work from home. And so, you know, what's the only way for to keep the kid busy while you're working is to put them on a screen. Um, and so a lot of that has happened, unfortunately, uh, you know, whether we liked it or not. But I think the other reason is that the kids felt the stress from the adults. And it's not our fault. I mean, it is what it is. Uh and and um when kids are emotional and they feel stressed, there's no freedom to play, you know, in that sense. I mean, yes, kids can naturally gravitate towards releasing some of that stress through play, but not all kids do that. Some kids will be able to do it naturally, and other kids, unfortunately, um they use the screen to continuously distract themselves and and it becomes this vicious circle where they don't feel comfortable expressing, they don't like tears or feeling sad, they'll try to distract that. Um, and and emotions will accumulate. And I think that's getting in the way. I feel like kids are more are more caught up now, shut down in their emotions than before.

Chris Colley: 17:49

And how does how does the center of excellence start to address this? Because I mean, we all feel it, right? Like I I totally agree with you. I I think kids are are a little bit different just because of the effects of COVID, really. Like, how do we start to counteract that or or kind of yeah, I don't want to say feel normal because I mean things change all the time, but can we get back to a spot or is there a way? Are there tools? Are there like what how does a center of excellence help our parents and teachers deal with this reality?

Catherine Korah: 18:24

It's a really good question, Chris. And and I I feel like as I'm unfolding some of the tools since COVID has hit, I've come to recognize that now it's not just about finding those tools to address the kids. I feel like we need to support the adults as well. Um, I I don't believe that the adults have come over the hump of the stress that came from COVID. I feel I feel like it brought them backwards in terms of their capability to manage stress because they had this additional stress to live with. And unfortunately, I don't feel like they've caught up just yet. I feel like every summer, I'm hoping the summer is going to be enough for them to, you know, to have some time off and to be able to come back. And it it's it's an interesting thing. I from year to year since COVID, I'm noticing adults are less and less refreshed when they come back in September. So there's something happening in terms of, and maybe it's just the unfolding of all of it, but I feel like the answer to your question, Chris, is bigger than just let's find the tools to support the kids, because the adults need to have the bandwidth to be able to manage all those tools additionally to managing themselves and to taking care of the kids. And so I think the answer is more systemic. Um, I feel like we need to reflect on how adults are being supported and how are adults being taken care of. How are we sharing the weight of some of these kids? Um, and how are we using our best? And it doesn't have to be these very complicated strategies, by the way. A lot of the tools that our center has worked on are really these very basic, universal best practices that teachers are already Already doing. It's just that we've found a way to kind of help teachers be more intentional in the way that they're using them, keeping track on them, making sure that the ones they're using are well adapted to the cohort that they have. They just need to be more aware of some of the strategies that they're using and making sure they're a good fit with their group. And then you have to kind of pay attention to so those kids that need more targeted support or more individualized support, how are we going to go one step further compared to the universal best practices to having some spots in the school for alternative with support staff helping out the teachers and the professionals coming in if needed for tier three and whatnot? And so we it's not that we don't have the strategies. We've got the strategies, but the adults need to be available and open to applying those intentionally and really being um in the moment and strategic and being timely. Because that's the other thing, too. I've come to notice that even if the adults have the right recipe, and honestly, there's no perfect recipe, sometimes the timing is off. Adults will wait until something comes up with a child and then they'll intervene. But the child's no longer receptive. And so a lot of the good strategies that could work when the child is more regulated and more attuned to the adult. Now at that point, it's almost like we're trying to put out a fire and the child's not receptive. The adult's getting flustered and the kids feel the energy from the adult and it just becomes this vicious circle. Yeah. Um, so yes, I think that, you know, yes, it's about having the strategies, but it's also about being intentional, having the right fit, having the right expectations. That I'm seeing, especially with our little ones, adults um, for some reason, don't at fully grasp that kids don't just grow up because of their age. Remember, we were talking about having the right conditions? And so some of so a lot of those conditions, if they're not there, the kids not growing up. They're growing older, but they're not growing up. So you still have four or five-year-olds in your classroom. You could have a key a classroom of grade four students, but if they haven't had the right conditions, you're basically teaching a kindergarten class.

Chris Colley: 22:16

Right. They're just not emotionally matured enough, right? Like they just haven't had enough exposure to playing and outside and building friendships. Did you find too that that the the cell phone band that that came into our schools this past September? I'm I'm I'm kind of conflicted about this. I just love your opinion on it in the sense that like okay, so we have no more cells in the in in the classrooms. We've kind of taken that burden off of teachers in the school. Yeah. But have we not just kind of passed the buck on? I'm worried about at home what happens with with the kids once and you know, I have a teen as well who's who gorges a little bit, you know, because of that lack of having, you know, they haven't had their their device all day.

Catherine Korah: 23:05

These devices are very addictive for anybody, even even for mature adults. But the thing that we need to understand is that a child who's immature, who's not emergent, so doesn't have that natural curiosity to want to un you know unfold their potential towards learning, you know, wanting to learn math and science and all of that. Those kids who don't naturally have that curiosity, they get easily bored and they try to fill that boredom with distractions. So this is where the phone fits in and becomes even more addictive to some of these kids who lack that emergence. And so the adults need to understand that for those kids, the second we pull out the phone, we're basically removing their lifeline. So that's one piece in terms of the emergence. The other thing you need to know as well is that the way in which our attachment works is that it gets deeper as we um, you know, are more vulnerable and that we're more mature, we allow ourselves to attach more deeply to people. And so we're okay with not just connecting through screens. We want to connect more deeply. But a child who doesn't trust the adults is not emergent and and does not um does not have a very in-depth type of attachment, attaches through very superficial connection. And so the screen, social media, is the perfect breeding ground to continue to feed this vicious cycle for kids who connect through being together and and whatnot. Um, and so they're seriously addicted to their phones, not only because of the lack of emergence, but because of the lack of depth of attachment. Those screens are complete competition. I mean, more than competition. I would say the adults can't even come near the competition, the competition of the screen. So if you remove the screen, you're leaving a hole with the child. And they don't know how to handle that hole. A lot of kids don't know how to handle boredom, it drives them crazy.

Chris Colley: 25:08

I know. And I was reading something where boredom is necessary, right? Like 100%. It allows kids to go a little bit deeper in their thoughts or think about things a little bit more deeply. But if you have these constant distractions, you never really kind of get deep into your own thoughts and mind. Like that the boredom is essential in a way.

Catherine Korah: 25:27

It is the gateway to creativity.

Chris Colley: 25:30

Interesting.

Catherine Korah: 25:31

It really is. And so, all this to say to go back to the cell phone ban, I'm not saying that we should have kept the phones in the class, but let's understand the impact of that and let's substitute it with something else. And so this would have been a great opportunity for the adults to set up, I don't know, it could have been whether through uh, I don't know, drama, different mediums, right? Through drama, through art, through different types of activities to help the adults connect with the kids to create those conditions so the kids can rely on the adults to find other avenues of creativity. And maybe that would have helped soften the blow a little bit.

Chris Colley: 26:09

Yeah.

Catherine Korah: 26:09

But for some kids, honestly, it's literally you're you're removing their lifeline.

Chris Colley: 26:13

Yeah.

Catherine Korah: 26:13

And so no wonder they're they're exploding and acting left, right, and center.

Chris Colley: 26:18

Wow, yeah. I mean, they're smart, these cell phone people. They know how to hook people. I mean, they spent millions of algorithms on this stuff, right? Like, oh yeah. Um, they want to have users um for love and they're pretty good at it.

Catherine Korah: 26:34

They really are.

Chris Colley: 26:34

Yeah.

Catherine Korah: 26:35

You know, the the maybe I'm a j a different generation. I don't know, but I'm of the generation that I I didn't grow up with a cell. I had a cell uh in my late teens. And so um, you know, I'm I'm watching my daughter who's 15, um, and she's had a phone since she's you know little. Um, and and it's hard when you haven't lived it yourself to know how to navigate this. Like it's a it's a it's a first for all for all of us. Totally, totally.

Chris Colley: 27:02

It's I I feel like that a lot nowadays, just figuring stuff out, you know, just trying to get enough information or or thoughts that you can kind of like come up with your own kind of idea, or here's how we'll we'll manage these things at home.

Catherine Korah: 27:17

And it's absolutely we have no clue. I I mean I I I recall David Suzuki, and I can't recall how many years it was, but he was saying that every time a new device is introduced to a culture, I I think it was a hundred years, but you know, it's almost crazy to think that it's that long. Um, that it takes a certain amount of years for for the culture to to realize after all of that the impact of it on the long run. Um and so I think we're still kind of living the impact of the television and the the the smartphones. We're not, I don't think we're there yet. Yeah.

Chris Colley: 27:52

Well, this is fascinating, Catherine. I want to I want to just thank you for for joining us for this chat. Um, whenever I talk with you, I have new thoughts and things I gotta go and look at and think about again. I appreciate you sharing your your expertise with us. Um I just see this as an ongoing conversation. We'll definitely have another chat down the road, but I appreciate to you taking some time and and sharing these really important thoughts. And I'll definitely link in uh the Center of Excellence's site. Uh thank you so much.

Catherine Korah: 28:24

Yes, and of course, my center doesn't focus too much on parents. That being said, I am going to be doing an event in the new year with Learn um with the through the CLCs, where we're gonna be trying to look at for kids who are doing um, you know, first school transition, how to be able to help parents with the the school uh and family engagement and being able to help our little ones. And so more to come. You know, you know, I I always have new stuff popping up and and uh yeah.

Chris Colley: 28:49

Yeah, that transition is so important too, right? From kind of play to sit at a desk all day. Like it can't happen so quickly. So um I'll definitely be participating in those conversations with you, Catherine.

Catherine Korah: 29:01

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Chris.