Chris Colley: 0:12

Here we are, people. Shift ED Podcast coming to you. Um we've been having some great conversations about leadership over the last little while, and I reached across our beautiful country over to BC to pull in Chris Kennedy, uh, who's the superintendent over in West Vancouver uh schools. He's been dabbling in leadership for a while, and um he's here to make us all a little bit smarter with his experiences uh that have brought him to where he is today. Chris, thank you very much for joining me. Hey Chris, it's great to be with you. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, and just doing a little bit of listening to you, I think we are like brothers from a different mother in the sense that you grew up with your parents as educators. So did I. Um my mom and dad were both educators, and I actually was in my mother's class in grade seven of all first year high school. Boom, mother's my teacher. Um, so I just want to put that out there on the table that I understand um kids from teacher parents.

Chris Kennedy: 1:21

We were we were we're born into the family business a little bit, eh? Totally, totally uh you you might have been in your um in your mother's class, but I had my mother as my colleague in my first year of teaching, which was also a unique experience too. That when you that your mother has her on the on her desk has pictures of you as a young child as you're now her colleague in the in the same school. Interesting.

Chris Colley: 1:45

Yes. That approach I did not have the chance to have that opportunity, but uh yeah. I mean, families in in families that have educators tend to dabble in education, you know, it just seems to be a part of our fabric makeup. Um but you in particular is very interested in. So I read that basketball was where kind of you started coaching and you were a high school uh teacher. Um but basketball was uh I wanted to ask you this question about it. When you were coaching basketball, how did that lead you into leadership positions in schools?

Chris Kennedy: 2:24

Yeah, so I I think I I I you know, born into the business maybe of it teaching, but you know, in university, as sort of I I played sports less, I got into coaching sports more. I really just I love that connection piece. Um, and I I I find that you know that as traditionally and even still today, many of our top um top leaders in in the system often either have a have a background in coaching or involved in extracurriculars in some way. And so I I found that that connection. And um I I think um I think it all helped me think more broadly about students is more than just about what they do in the classroom. And so uh that that experiences I had about connecting with young people outside the classroom uh made me see them more completely and think of how do you how you how do we have these kind of experiences for more kids? Very interesting.

Chris Colley: 3:16

And what were what were the best um like you were one of the youngest uh superintendents to um fill that position in in West Vancouver? And I think over our our nation as well. Um what do you think was most effective in getting you to the superintendent position from you know teaching and and being a part of the educational kind of environment? What were those those valuable um qualities or skills that you brought to the table that you felt would benefit that superintendent position?

Chris Kennedy: 3:56

Yeah, and and so I I think I've always tried to enter conversations with curiosity and a bit of humility and being humble and like when you're the younger one in the room, you have to be careful. You know, I started teaching at 22, principal at 29, superintendent at 35, 36. Um, you have to be careful about pretending you know too much because there's a lot of people that have a lot of wisdom around you. Um, but maybe I can you know be an empathetic listener and help people make connections and and be somebody that you can trust. You know, the same things that are valuable in a classroom are valuable in the superintendency. Like, yeah, I have to make people feel warm and welcome and trustworthy and trusting of you uh to actually be able to go and make a difference. And so those same skills at 22 in the classroom are the same ones, many of them I think I'm still trying to apply today.

Chris Colley: 4:41

Right, right. And were those first couple of years into uh being a superintendent were were those tricky years? Like how how do you approach such a transition where you're kind of taking care of, you know, 20 some odd students to, you know, thousands of teachers that that would be under your purview?

Chris Kennedy: 5:03

How do you make that transition? Yeah, first is that perspective, right? So in classrooms, you have your class, and then as a principal, you kind of have the purview of of of all the classes in your school, and then the district to to think about all the schools in your district. Uh, you know, that balance about trying not to micromanage but kind of see it at the right level. Um, I I think um I think I tried to lean into some of the things that that were some of were my differentiator, some of the technology pieces, you know, coming into administration in the early 2000s as we enter Web 2.0, um, you know, that era, you know, that I have I brought a different skill set than most previous superintendents might have brought to the to the to the conversation. And so um uh trying to lean into that as well. Um and and then just being you know, try to be intensely curious and and try to model that, whether that was through blogging or other social tools, and be be a try to be as authentic as I can. Um I uh that if folks began to know me as a person, I think they were more likely to trust me as a leader.

Chris Colley: 6:03

Right, right. And I mean I guess it always does come back to relationship building. Like that is really the foundation of our business that we that we're in.

Chris Kennedy: 6:13

Yeah, right. We're in the relationship business. And no matter what your role is in the system, if if if people don't feel safe and they don't trust you, we're we're not getting anywhere. Whether that's a whether that's working one-on-one with a in it with a kindergarten student or trying to run a school district. So same kind of same thing.

Chris Colley: 6:27

Right.

Chris Kennedy: 6:28

Interesting.

Chris Colley: 6:29

And you mentioned blogging. Like you have this blog called the culture of yes, um, where you you know you post all kinds of thoughts and ideas. And what was kind of the mindset behind that uh original, you know, the the the mindset, the catalyst of starting up such a blog.

Chris Kennedy: 6:45

Yeah, and and and so in my in my slightly younger age is I was a newspaper, uh, I I wrote a newspaper column. And so I'm old school, old school journalism, and did a, you know, a kind of a early as a teacher. I I had a had a contract with the local newspaper, wrote 550 words a week. And so I I kind of really got into enjoying that. Um it was a way to for people to get to know me a little bit differently. It also forced me to continue to learn, like like that to continue to explore topics. Um, and then it's a bit of thinking out loud. Like I never get like when people push back on an idea, that's that's that's what I want. Like, because you actually we actually are struggle sometimes, I think, to find places to have conversations in education. And so if I could be a host for having interesting conversations about where we're trying to go as a system, like that was exciting to me. And so um, you know, and now it's you know, 16 years into this blog, you know, kind of been defining a little bit of the superintendency for me is you know, almost 500 posts on on, you're right, a whole range of topics. And I I love now to go back because and see where my thinking is the same and where it's different. Like, you know, you kind of I think we all grow and evolve and the world changes around us, and so we are we think differently now too. And so that's been uh helpful for me as just as an ongoing learner.

Chris Colley: 8:00

Yeah, totally. And do you find that you always have to keep adapting to your position as superintendent? Like we see kids changing, we see teachers change, like the world around us is changing. Does your position have to evolve with that too? And maybe offer a um an example, Chris, of where you've had to adapt um your job and your position to match what's happening around you in the environment.

Chris Kennedy: 8:26

Yeah, uh, and I think you can first start with the technology. I remember um, you know, just you know, coming into the coming into the job, uh, we were still a very, you know, you you put the voicemail out to the staff about the stool closures and things like that. I I think um I think one of the keys of a good superintendent is they help see around the corner where's to where's next. And so I'm always intently curious about whether that's with the technologies or pieces like that. Um so that you know, definitely on the technology. And the other thing I think in recent years is just I've really um come to embrace the the well-being movement. You know, that I think earlier in the superintendency I dismissed it sometimes. Like, you know, we we you know, we're about the students here, you know, the adults need to figure it out. Um, but we're actually about everybody in the system. And I think I'm far better now at making sure, you know, in order to look after the students, you have to look after the adults too, and to actually see that as part of the scope of the work. And so I think that's where some of my thinking, my thinking is um has has definitely evolved. And then I I guess the last part I would say is I've just become in when you're in it for a while, you become more comfortable about maybe risk taking and being curious and not being wrong. And it's far easier for me to put share ideas on my blog now because I have 400 plus posts of credibility behind it and you know 15 years of experience. Um, I look back and go, like I was far more nervous to share ideas 15 years ago than I am now because I didn't have I didn't have a track record of credibility. And and that's a good reminder as you think about other people in the system and the the anxiousness they probably be bring when they uh have to be be public.

Chris Colley: 10:01

Totally, totally. I'm really curious too, Chris, about the well-being part, because I know that this is something that across Canada, you know, provincially all school systems, you know, all of our ministries are are are thinking about and addressing, and there is concern about our teachers' well-being. We're seeing the turnover rate of teachers coming in and leaving pretty quickly, you know, they say it's around five years for Quebec anyway. Um are you experiencing similar things with teachers in in BC where the mental well-being of a teacher really needs to be addressed? And and maybe some of the things that you're implementing to help deal with those kinds of things where teachers are getting burnt out or it's just too much overwhelmed. Like, can you fill in some of that for us?

Chris Kennedy: 10:46

Yeah, and and you know, it I I think it is a it is a broader, not just an education conversation we're having. And um, I I I think I think part of the thing is we've become far more we are more comfortable talking about mental health and mental well-being, which is a great thing than we were 10, 15 years ago. And so I think we're being more honest and authentic about how we're doing as people and willing to share that with others. And so that's that's part of it. And I think the you know, the challenge is like it's not like a like a this like if we could just do this one thing, it hits everybody because everybody's thing is a little different, you know? And so, you know, we we you know try to find ways to make people feel connected, whether those are um, whether those are professional, whether those are, you know, like run clubs or or you know, get togethers or social gatherings, you know, you know, that that you kind of try to make work feel sticky and people feel connected. There is a bit of a sense that we probably a generation ago schools staff felt more collegiality than they sometimes might now. And so how do you how do you take the modern worker and modern teacher and and what is it they're looking for to feel connected? And like, and what a 25-year-old is looking for is different than a 50-year-old sometimes. And like, and and so like I think that's the great, that's one of the challenges is you can't there's not like a we'll all go to the workshop, right? Like this isn't one of those, this isn't one of those, we'll go to a workshop and that will solve this. It's like each individual and trying to help them feel connected, and it's just like a time investment to try to do that too.

Chris Colley: 12:15

Right, right.

Chris Kennedy: 12:16

I mean, I would I would say the other piece, just trying to model that, like, you know, the you know, you talked we we talked about the blog and the culture of yes, is it's how do you create a place where people feel uh it's not a place of of nervousness and fear, but of curiosity and opportunity, right? And so then if they can if they can have more say over their work and more autonomy over there over what they do, they feel better about what they do too.

Chris Colley: 12:39

Right. Yeah, I like that. Can you see that also flipping onto the students as well, like that exact same kind of mindset that we have to give them more freedom in their learning? Because it seems as we're kind of moving forward in in you know, the age that we're in, is kids are becoming more disconnected from what's going on in schools and kind of like not seeing the relevancy of it. I mean, we've been battling this for uh, I'd say centuries. Yeah. But what what what are some of the things you're implementing via BC that is is addressing let's getting kids ready for something that we're really not sure of what the future might hold for us?

Chris Kennedy: 13:20

I I think BC has done a really good job with curriculum by being a by far broader and big idea focused than most jurisdictions in Canada and around the world. You know, that there are big ideas we want you to understand, but there's not like 200 outcomes that you have to know in social 11. You know, that but we want you to understand these concepts. And so, and that that allows teachers to have more flexibility and also then students to have, you know, probably more choice in in what they learn and how they share what they learn. Um, you know, the I I think you're exactly right on it. If we can create choice and flexibility, it's important for staff and for students. And so, and that helps to make they make them feel connected. And so um I think we've also done a good job in BC about you know that that balance between this is what every child needs to know and which and this is where there's full flexibility. And as they move through the system, there are far fewer things that every child needs needs to know. Um, and I know that upsets the person who's passionate about their thing sometimes, but you want to create that flexibility so kids have more choice. And you know, I I see kids, you know, we have hundreds of kids in robotics programs and that never existed 20 years ago, and and kids who spend their afternoon in a sport that they love and they take care of their academics in the morning, and those kids feel connected to school because they are able to engage in their passions as part of their overall program.

Chris Colley: 14:43

Right, right. And and and hearing that too is listening to the kids as to what their interests are and then using those within the context of whatever you might have to deliver as uh material that might be, you know, evaluated down the road.

Chris Kennedy: 14:58

Um, and and isn't that interesting in the AI world? Is that will we be able to customize and personalize? And so if you're in a math class and you know a child loves the NHL, can you help customize their addition and subtraction around NHL word problems while the person beside them is a is a huge Taylor Swift fan, and maybe that they can be customized to some of their, you know, and like that that that that kind of customization, which is getting easier and easier, um, you know, and those are maybe more extreme examples, but like how can we maybe take advantage of kids' passions um in a way to make to connect them to uh traditional learning so that every child doesn't have to learn in the exact same way with the exact, you know, learn from you know those word problem examples that have no relevance to them at all. You think of our indigenous communities and ensuring that there are indigenous examples that they can learn from, which far probably far more relevant than some of our traditional examples.

Chris Colley: 15:57

Totally. I love that example too. Um, and I mean, you open this door to Inwalks AI here in our educational world. Um, I mean, November 2022 was was quite a revolution in the sorts. There's been some time and a little bit of gap in between when it first dumped on us to now. Where are you guys feeling you're at with AI in education, kind of overall? Like what's the perspective or the the message that you want to put forth about AI for your for your communities?

Chris Kennedy: 16:29

Yeah, I and I think I think there is a universal feel that no matter where you are anywhere, you feel like you're behind. And that is what how that's how AI makes you feel, but just by how quickly the world around us is moving. Um, you know, I I think I I we're trying to figure out ways that how does AI help amplify the human experience? And so if AI can do things to help take away some of the emails and some of the lesson planning pieces so that allows you to have greater connections in your classroom, that's phenomenal. What we don't want AI to do is to take away the things that should be human-centric. And so it has a role in some rote in some assessment, but some assessment needs to be human, uh human-driven. Um, and and that uh so I'm finding that I find that AI has allowed me to use technology less. And that's exciting for me, is because I'm less stuck in the creating my PowerPoints and on review and on editing my papers that allows me to use my time differently. And so that I think we just have to keep thinking about so how we want to use AI because if if so if the lessons of social media, one of the things were we let social media drag us around and rather than us to say this is how we might want to use it in schools. And so, how do we make sure that we are we are the ones in the control of saying this is how AI amplifies what already happens in our classrooms or makes us more human, not less human?

Chris Colley: 17:53

Yeah, totally. I love that too, that intrinsically it is a it can be used as a tool, but the creativity definitely comes from the user itself. You know, we have no choice but to. Um and what do you do with with the people that are a little slower to come along to it, that are a little more hesitant or kind of think that it's that it's more negative than positive that it brings to the table? How do you get momentum moving forward even with naysayers?

Chris Kennedy: 18:21

Yeah, and like I I think you have to like there's no problem. Like, I'm I'm not uncomfortable to surface concerns. Like, I I think we should frame every conversation around risks and possibilities. Like, I get the environmental challenges connected to AI. I'm concerned about about privacy and security. I'm concerned about big tech companies who have too much control over the agenda in education. Like, those all like none of that's not important. Is is not it we shouldn't be dismissive of that. So we should acknowledge that um and then think, well, what are ways that we can, what are ways though that this can enhance students' experiences? Like, I I like you know, the the answer isn't AI or no AI. But the answer is is is how how AI fits into what we believe is the right thing for education in school. And and it's okay to be where you are. Uh you know, with AI, it's just not okay to stay there, I kind of think. You know, like and and so encourage people who have not yet dabbled in it to figure out how they might find value in their personal life first, then maybe as a there are what's different than some technologies is there are efficiencies that you can find in both your personal and professional life that were harder to find with other technologies, I think. And so I think you help people find efficiencies, uh, and then you get them thinking about how this might work with students and how you know the you you know, we've tried to talk about uh we use some of the work out of Australia about you know green, green, yellow, orange, red assignments and and that kind of thinking about assessment. And um I I I think uh it's super important that we talk with our young people. We have we have AI literacy lessons for every every grade, common experiences. And I think talking to young people about it too, this is the world that we're part of. We want to be relevant. Of it in the world. So we need to think of and talk about where I AI fits into that world because it's it's going to be more part of our world in a year than it is today.

Chris Colley: 20:08

Absolutely. I I was talking with some teachers too, and we had this kind of nervous gut reaction that we kind of miss the boat on social media a little bit, I found in our schools and getting kids ready for what it is and how to vet it and how to kind of see it removed a little bit, and they just went all in, and we're starting to see, you know, we see the repercussions of such investment into social media by our students. How do we not make that same mistake again with AI?

Chris Kennedy: 20:40

Yeah, and so um I as I say, I think social media, I think, you know, we social media showed up and we go, well, okay, it's here, so let's we bring it, we're we're gonna teach you how to use it, rather than think, what is it we want to teach? And how does the how might social media support or not support that and help it find its place? And you know, and now we're trying to deconstruct that with social media a little bit. Um I um I uh it will be interesting if if AI is a will AI have that some of those same bumps, and it probably will as it gets better, and you know, AGI and you know, all of those pieces, like I like we are I we maybe still in a bit of the honeymoon phase around AI. Uh uh and and it's gonna it's gonna pose some big challenges and that that I think we need to talk about. Uh, but I I I think the answer is you keep actually surfacing, these are the challenges, but these are the opportunities. These are the challenges. You know what? Do we do do we want young people going to AI as a counselor? Probably not. Are there places where an AI can be supportive to students in a way that they can't get that immediate support from a teacher? Probably. And like, and like just like continue to be be curious about it. Like, um, I I I think the you know, the those those on either on the extremes of AI, uh, those are the ones I don't have a lot of time for. Is that I think I think that we all we want to that's our as education that we're we should be into always curious, and that's kind of what I want to be about AI.

Chris Colley: 22:10

Amazing. I love it. Well, Chris, thanks for this. Um I have one last question, and it's I mean, it's not too big, but it's pretty as as a a a fellow Canadian, um and educator, uh, me as well, other people except I'm in Quebec, how do you see education Canada-wise? I know that it's provincial, but we all deal with certain things, like AI, for example, is an issue that we're all gonna deal with in Manitoba, in Quebec, New Brunswick, where all across the country. How is it that you feel that the the bigger vision of Canada education or education within Canada, how do you see that down the road? And do you see it as coming together more or always kind of like sectioned and provincial?

Chris Kennedy: 23:04

I I really think that AI is this is a is a good catalyst and opportunity to make us more connected. Yeah, you know, it everyone comes back to education is provincial jurisdiction and we have our uniqueness. Absolutely. But you're right. AI, AI is a great example of we don't need to replicate something in each of our provinces. We actually have some similar values. If I you ask educators across Canada about what they think of AI and equity, we'll probably get similar answers. And so how do you network together uh schools and districts and teachers across Canada for a Canada-wide approach? I would love to see the federal government step in this place, and I know they're nervous too, because why would they commit resource to something that they're not responsible for? But yeah, but when we have a federal minister responsible for AI, I would and you know, I think part of the few us to be competitive in the future is an education answer. And that's hard because I know it's not federal jurisdiction, but I would love to see, I would love to see the federal government, or then if not them, then it's up to up to provinces or you know, or others within them, is to continue to fuel this national conversation. Um, I I think if anything in the last 12 months, we have we have wanted to come together as a nation more than ever because of all the politics happening around us. And and AI and education seems like a great opportunity for us to build these kind of networks that help us be globally competitive, but also reinforce the common values that we have across the country.

Chris Colley: 24:31

I love that. I love that. Well, we're gonna leave it on that note because I think it's a beautiful one to leave it on, Chris. Um, I really want to thank you for your time and and and some of your insight into education across this beautiful country of ours and and in BC as well. Um, it's been a real pleasure.

Chris Kennedy: 24:48

Thanks, Chris.