Chris Colley: 0:13

Here we are, people, another episode Shifted Podcast. Coming to you on a kind of chilly October. We're getting close to Halloween here, and the days are getting a little bit shorter, a little less sunlight out there. But I have a great guest, a colleague, Debbie Horrocks, who's our director of Provincial Resource Team, the director of Via Learn. And we're coming in today with some great things because she's going to talk about amazing stuff of what the CLCs do and their capability and how they connect the Anglo communities together. But it's a little bittersweet because Debbie is going to be retiring in November and we're going to lose a great asset. But she is going to leave some nuggets for us and seeds that will grow as we grow. Debbie, thanks so much for hopping on here and kind of giving a review of you and the CLCs over these last many, many years. I guess that my first question will start with how it all began. Now, you joined the Learn as the CLC director in 2010, but I know that you were dabbling in this before you became the director. Um I mean, CLCs were created in 2006. It was an initiative that took shape. What inspired the vision of connecting schools and communities? And how do you convince people that it's truly transformational for English education in Quebec?

Debbie Horrocks: 1:47

Well, thanks for having me today, Chris. As you said, it's going to be a little tough, but CLCs are close to my heart. The idea of a community school actually has roots going back over a century. In Quebec, the community learning centers, or what we call the CLCs, were launched as part of a minority language education initiative funded by the Department of Canadian Heritage, but always through the money always goes through the Ministry of Education. Back in 2006, the schools in the English education sector had been really facing a persistent decline in enrollment, and there was real concern that more schools were going to close and something needed to be done. At that time, then Assistant Deputy Minister for English Education, Leon LaFause, believed that English schools could become central for both education and community development. And that when families and communities are actively engaged in student learning, outcomes improve for everyone. It took a while to convince the boards to embrace the community school approach, but 19 years and 90 schools later says to me we must have been doing something right. The original purpose was to strengthen the education, obviously to strengthen the educational outcomes for students in the English system, but at the same time, built into that was support to support the vitality of English speaking community as a whole. And this continues to be the mission of CLCs today. When I first heard about CLCs, I was school board commissioner, sitting on the board of directors at the Quebec English School Boards Association. And I knew right away that I needed to be involved. I was working in community development at the time, and I immediately saw the value and the importance of connecting English schools and their communities. I joined LEARN in 2010 as a CLC project coordinator under the provincial resource team director at that time, Paul Lange. When Paul retired in 2017, I had the privilege of stepping into the PRT director role to continue building on that foundation. Poll was one of the co-founders of the CLC Initiative and had been working for the Ministry of Education, implementing the New Approaches and New Solutions, or NANS strategy, which targeted schools in disadvantaged areas. Both NANS and CLCs rely on school community partnerships to improve student success. Hole was invited to join a committee that had been mandated to explore various models of community schools across North America and Europe. But this committee also knew that they needed tailor it to the Quebec context. Everything has to have the Quebec, the Quebec flavor to it. That Quebec vision was to create a network of community schools across the English education system that could contribute to improving student engagement and achievement, strengthening intergenerational ties, acting as a catalyst for regional revitalization, ensuring that English schools remained viable, valued, and visible in their communities, and most important, that they were responsive to the particular culture and needs of each of those communities. And that's straight from that that's back from 2006. That was an original vision for the CLCs. And they were envisioned to become not just places for students to learn during the day, but the idea was to expand the use of the school buildings so that they could become places for families, for seniors, for local organizations to gather, to learn, and to connect throughout the year, not just, you know, not just from eight to three. And we can't forget the video conferencing equipment that all CLCs were given back in the days. It was supposed to be a moneymaker. I don't know if you remember this first, but it was supposed to be a moneymaker for the school boards. But of course, it never amounted to that. But it wasn't hard to get the school boards on board at first, as there was also considerable funding that was attached to get a CLC up and running. And that that funding has sort of fizzled out a little bit. But what I would say, what all CLCs have in common, and really what drives the sustainability of Quebec's community schools, is having the presence of a community development agent or a CDA in each CLC. Their role is to integrate community-based resources into school programming to enhance student learning. And CDAs really are the driving force behind the community school approach. They build the bridges between schools, families, and community partners.

Chris Colley: 6:22

Interesting. So the network is really the power behind this idea. I mean, 90 schools across English English boards. It's pretty amazing. But what were some of those challenges? I imagine that it wasn't all, you know, rosies and roses and puppies. Like there were, I'm sure, scaling and and and figuring out how to keep this responsive to the community and also keep that network expanding. Can you talk to that?

Debbie Horrocks: 6:53

Yep. Well, you're right. It's been quite a journey. We knew that scaling up was never going to be simple. It could never be a one-size-fits-all process. And every board wanted to do it a little differently. So, and some boards didn't want anything to do with expansion. But we have to remember that every school and every community is different. And even if they're in the same school board, you know, they they can experience some significant differences. And we know that what works beautifully in the Gas Bay, for instance, isn't might not work in Montreal, and vice versa. Or, you know. So from the start, our focus on the PRT was really to build a flexible framework that would be strong enough to hold the network together, but adaptable enough to let each community make it their own. We spent the first probably 10 years of the initiative may training our network on this, on the guidebook and this and that. And then things, then it sort of has when when it became a little more prescriptive, when our role became a little more prescriptive by the ministry, we sort of had to move towards a little less of the guidebook. But the but the the intentions that of the original guidebook are still in place today. We have had our challenges. And I would probably say that sustainability and funding. CLCs are a classic example of doing more with less. Most of them operate on a single source of government funding, which has never been a sustainable model. Many boards supplement their CLCs with funding from other envelopes and programs. And the PRT and the schools are constantly looking for creative funding solutions for new grants, for project opportunities to help, you know, CLCs offer programming in their schools. And our CDAs have been have become grant writing experts out of necessity. And, you know, sustainability and funding, it's it's not that's not unknown to a lot of community organizations. So recruitment and retention, it's another ongoing issue, especially in our rural and remote areas. There's no official job classification for the CDAs. Every board has a different has a diff have a different classification. The working conditions can vary across boards. So maintaining consistency can be tough. Equity, you know, it's an equity, but they're all expected, all the CDAs are expected to do the same job, but their working conditions are not always equitable. Connectivity is a is a huge challenge. The community school approach is all about building relationships, connecting. And when we couldn't bring together the network together annually in person, we've really felt the impact. We used to host conferences. We started out hosting two conferences a year, and they were everybody came. We had amazing feedback from all participants. Then we went down to one conference a year, and then we hadn't had one in seven years. And the impact, we we saw the impact. Changes in funding without regular opportunities for the CLC leaders and partners and community stakeholders, because it's not the conferences weren't just for CLC, it was for our partners and community stakeholders. And it was an opportunity to learn, to gather, to share. But doing that in person without having the capacity to do that in person, the social fabric of the network, the web of relationships start to fray. And the richness of such in-person experiences can't really be replicated virtually or in fragmented communication. So, you know, that whole thing of connectivity, if you're building relationships, you have to connect at some point. And it is what it is. And I guess visibility. Even now, 19 years in, there are still people across the English education sector who have never heard of a CLC, let alone the community school approach. Only a few schools in each board are CLC schools, with the exception of New Frontiers School Board, which has every school is a CLC. So the approach hasn't always had the visibility it deserves. But and it's something we continue to work on every year. So that's all the challenges, but we've also had some great successes. And I would say honestly, it all comes down to the people. That's been our biggest success. The passion and dedication of the educators, the principals, the CDAs, the community partners, and the families who drive this work from the ground up, because it is a ground, ground-up initiative. We've also seen that incredible growth you spoke about. We went from 15 schools starting off to 90 right now. And we did we did that in phases, giving each wave of schools time to adapt to the model and adapt the model to their own local context. And throughout the these four four phases, the PRT invested heavily in providing professional development, mentoring, and coaching for the CLC teams. That capacity building piece has always been crucial and remains a key element of our mandate to this day. Another big win, how community-driven the model is. Each CLC reflects the priorities of its own community, its grassroots. It creates its own action plan. And that local ownership is part of why the CLCs have lasted and have grown. They have local partners, they work with their municipalities, their local CLSC, their Maison de Famille, various community organizations. And they also connect with some of the provincial ones, the larger partners that we're going to speak about in a minute. Eventually, I sit on a number of community development tables, both in education and in the wider community. And that in itself has helped spread visibility and create awareness of the CLC initiative while also creating a lot of opportunities for collaboration. A great example, and they have become great partners, is we've been at had the privilege of working with several, several of the centers of excellence, in particular those friendship focused on mental health, autism, and school climate, all key elements in our schools these days. And they've all brought incredible learning opportunities and resources into the CLC schools. The centers of excellence are an underutilized resource for all of our schools, as far as I'm concerned. And of course, the CDA, that role itself, that we couldn't be that that's the biggest piece of our success. That role is transformative. We often say that the CDA has one foot in the school and one foot in the community, and that they bridge both worlds, aligning community initiatives with school goals so that we're all working towards the same outcomes. So we've had a lot of successes, challenges along the way, but we're still chugging along and made some amazing partnerships along the way.

Chris Colley: 13:40

I love too, Debbie, that you're saying that the relationship building is the key of it. You know, I mean, we say that in in in you know public education as well, that if you're not building those relationships, things fragment, you know, and and and start to dissolve a little bit.

Debbie Horrocks: 13:56

So absolutely. And part and relationships take time to build. You have to build the trust and you it takes time. So you know it's not an overnight process. So it can take years sometimes to to connect with the right partner and find the find that one project or that one thing that you want to work on together.

Chris Colley: 14:13

Right. And and I assume too oftentimes the CLCs are kind of in a little bit of an isolation as well, where there's not maybe as many English schools around where they can collaborate with one another. You're looking for a community to, you know, to bring into the school so that the school does have those opportunities that are out there in the community.

Debbie Horrocks: 14:35

Absolutely. We have CLCs that are very isolated in in remote regions, like the whole where the the committee Santa Saint Viscolaire du Littoral, the littoral used to be the Littoral School Board, uh is has uh four CLCs, and they're about as isolated as you can get up on the North Shore of Quebec. And you know, parts of the Central Quebec School Board, the Bay, the Bay Como area, it's high highly, you know, you've got these really tiny schools, eastern shores, some really tiny schools, then these schools are often the last English institution in those communities. So it's really important. So yeah, it can be very isolating. So that network, having that network is really has really been a an important piece of of being at community schools.

Chris Colley: 15:21

Absolutely vital, I would say, you know, those connections. And I mean, the collaborations have been there's a plethora of collaborations that have developed since its beginning phases, you know, mental health projects with the CSSN, Elan, having artists participate in classrooms and and just wonderful collaborations that take place. Can you share some of those community vitality through education?

Debbie Horrocks: 15:49

Absolutely. As you said, collaboration is at really at the heart of what CLCs do. Community schools are built on the idea that when schools, families, and community organizations work together, we can better address the holistic needs of students. Not just academically, but socially and emotionally too. Our data shows that CLC programming and activities contribute significantly, significantly to improving school climate. Over the years, we've built so many partnerships, but I guess the one that really stands out and one that has been especially strategic, particularly strategic, is our collaboration with, as you said, the Community Health and Social Services Network, or the CHSSN. We've been working together since 2008. And what makes it such a natural fit is that we share a common mission: supporting the English-speaking community. For Learn and the CLCs, that's through education. For CHSSN, that's through promoting health, wellness, and access to services in English. And working together, we've been able to bring mental health resources, family engagement programs, early childhood initiatives right into the schools and directly to families. This has been especially impactful in some of those rural and remote areas where access to such services in English can be very limited. And don't get me wrong, some of this is even some there are some schools that have challenges reaching accessing services in in English in the greater in the in the large urban areas too. So it's not just, it's not just a rural thing. But for CHSSN and the CLCs, if you think about it, our strengths really complement each other. So still see schools have strong connections with families and youth, but we don't have deep health and social service capacity. Whereas CHSSN, on the other hand, has incredible expertise and partnerships in the health sector, but limited access to youth and family engagement spaces. So by working together, CHSSN programs reach more people through a school network, and our schools gain access to CHSSN data, funding, and expertise. I would say over the past 15 years that we've been working together or more, it's been a, you know, it's been a powerful cross-sector collaboration that really has helped bridge and break down those traditional silos of health and education. I know we keep hearing from years, you know, education and health, they need to talk more often. The mech and the mess need to talk more often. And you don't see it happening very often. Well, it actually happens in the community schools. Another wonderful partnership has been with the English Language Arts Network, or ELAN. Through that partnership, we've been able to bring more English-speaking artists into the schools. These artists help students explore their identity and their culture through creative expression, which not only enriches what the students are learning in the classroom, but also helps connect them more deeply to who they are and where they come from. It's building a sense of belonging and identity. And all of this to me goes back to the simple reality that schools can't do it alone anymore. The community school approach has opened doors to a whole network of community organizations that want to offer their services and expertise and creativity to support students and families. And these strategic partnerships must be reciprocal and to be meaningful and sustainable. For schools, it's easy, it's easy to think of partnerships of people coming in to help or to deliver services. But the true community partnership is about an exchange. The schools offer access to families, to students into that community space. And that partner organization brings in its expertise, resources, and perspective. And when both sides see the value in what the other offers, that's when the collaboration really thrives. So for example, when a health organization like the CHSSN partners with the CLC school, they gain access to the communities and youth that they might not have otherwise been able to reach. While at the same time, the school gains access to expertise in programming that strengthens students and family well-being. Both sides are meeting their individual mandates and end up being stronger together. But there's another, there's another piece in there that about it's not just how they work together, there's also an interesting cultural reciprocity that happens. Schools start to learn from their community partners. Things like the local context, the strengths and the assets in the neighborhood, the family dynamics, the cultural identity, and even how to collaborate with groups outside of education. And at the same time, the commun the community partners, and this is really important, and it's been a bit of a struggle. Community partners need to learn how schools operate, how to connect with young people, how to align what they do with the school's learning goals, and how to navigate things as simple as like the school calendar or the daily calendar from the school. Because honestly, school and community organizations, they often run on completely different schedules. And so I said there has been a bit of a learning curve at first. Over time, that back and forth learning really builds trust. And that's what makes the partnerships more stronger and more sustainable. And I guess at the end of the day, anyone connected to the CLC network will say that partnerships are at the heart of the community school approach. And when we invite others to the table to share ownership of the outcomes, that's when we're talking start talking about collective impact. No single organization or sector can achieve lasting social change alone. It requires many stakeholders to coordinate their efforts around a common agenda. And in this case, that agenda is student achievement and success.

Chris Colley: 21:27

Wow. Yeah, I I really appreciate too what you were saying about how community and school don't. I mean, sometimes it can be a pretty hard fit because they kind of run in different lanes but rely on one another, you know, like they need one another.

Debbie Horrocks: 21:42

Absolutely. And you know, we used to hear how community partners would try to get into a particular school, but they couldn't even get past the school secretary, right? Right. There was that that gatekeeper there. But that's what the CLC says had bringing the community in and introducing the community school approach to not only to the you know the the principal and a few of the teachers, but it's introducing them to the whole school concept of this is what it means to have community. And then yeah, it's gonna have to, you're gonna have to change the way you have traditionally operated or worked, but you know, there's a benefit in it. And the benefit to us the benefits outweigh the what's the expression, the benefits outweigh the the crunches. Yeah, the benefits whatever.

Chris Colley: 22:24

Totally, totally. I love that. I love that idea. And I mean, I guess you see this too. Like when you I mean, you've been doing this for a while, like when you see finally the lanes starting to merge together, I mean that must be a very uh special thing to to be a part of. Could yeah, talk to us a little bit about like how people and communities have changed since you've been involved with the CLCs? Have you seen shifts that are starting to happen?

Debbie Horrocks: 22:56

I I see shifts in in some regions and in some school boards. I think one of the challenges and another challenge, well, it goes back to the retainment, the retaining of and the recruitment of personnel. There's a constant, and and you know this well, there's a revolving door in education, right? Whether it's principals, whether it's at the management level, or whether it's even on the ground or CDAs, there's a constant, a constant revolving door of new people. But I guess attitudes have changed. We certainly have, we're certainly feeling that our the Ministry of Education, who is our who's our our main funder, has really started to understand the community school approach. They're really putting a focus on it. They're encouraging, you know, they have their whole strategic theme of Ecole Famille Communauté, and and they they built this into it. They've supported research on our extended model project. So they've really become the the ministry seems to be taking greater and greater interest in it. That's the way it was at the beginning. And then there was this period sort of we were used to be in the MEQ strategic plan. The CLCs used to be written had been written into the strategic strategic plan. And then when the French school started asking for CLCs, they had to take us out of, they had to take us out of the strategic plan. So they didn't want to, but it's sort of got a bit of a, you know, you everything goes in a and it has its ups and downs, sort of ebbs and flows. And we're sort of at that point where we're getting more and more of that ministry support now. It but it's Anglo funding, it's minority language funding. So they needed to find their own stream of funding to support it, and that wasn't as evident, I guess. But anyway. Yeah, I guess when we talk about what I'm proud of over the years, it's not really one single project or an event. We've worked with a lot of we've worked on a lot of great projects, but really stands out to me is how the culture of collaboration and the sense of belonging has grown. I watch schools move from being mostly service providers, you know, you have the karate teacher come in and you have the knitting teacher come in or whatever, to becoming real hubs of community life. So things are happening for students, for staff, for families, for the wider community. Everybody's engaged in school life. And that's really true in the again. I can't keep mentioning the rural and remote schools, but I really think the impact on those rural and remote schools and school boards has really been significant. You know, the the legacy I hope to leave is about really about people and relationships. We've got my PRT, the PRT, my the provincial resource team, that's my team at Learn. They're such a talented, thoughtful, and caring group. They they teach me things every day. They bring those quality and they bring those qualities to everything they do. It's been amazing to see how they've each shaped and grown the work in their own ways. And the broader learn team, you know, we don't work together very much, you and I. But I've always appreciated the commitment and positive energy that and welcome and the feeling made us feel welcome at Learn. And we because we have a shared purpose. My CLC principals, my CLC, they're not my CLC principles, but the CLC principles and school board reps play a really important role, accompanying an advisory role. They're very busy people. We try not to bother our principals too much, but they're key, they're key, they're key, they're key leaders. They have to work in collaboration very closely with their CDA. Principals and school board reps, they juggle a lot, they're wearing lots of hats, especially in the smaller boards, but they still take the time, they still make the extra effort to work with their CLC teams, to connect with community partners, and to support the community school approach in lots of ways. And their willingness to engage that way when their time is so limited really makes a difference. And again, I've said it, I can never say it enough though, the CDAs. I've seen so many of them grow into strong community leaders themselves after they've left the initiative or left the school or even with still within the school system. They're just an amazing group of people. It's never been about one person or one program. It's been always about a community of people who care deeply and want to work together to make things happen. A great example, you know, even when people move on, whether it's to a new role or a new school or even a new community, that spirit of collaboration stays with them. And they carry that belief in connection and community wherever you wherever they go. So a recent example that really touched me is I was approached the Cadavic School Board North reached out because they want to bring the community school approach to their northern schools. And who's leading the effort? A former CLC principal and a former CDA. So to me, that says so much that people see the value of this approach and the impact that it's having on students in communities, and they want to bring that to their communities. Funding obviously is a whole other issue for them. They have other different streams of funding, but the fact that they they see the value in this and they think it would help help their students and their communities is really, you know, really impressive. I guess, you know, schools that we we often hear how schools operate in silos, but now they're they're and but they're now seen as trusted community partners in many community in many communities, right? They're open, they're responsive, they're really connected to what's going on in the community. I've had the chance to visit most of our schools across the across the province, and we've seen schools and communities become more resilient, more creative, and more confident, even through the challenges, you know, like the pandemic and the never-ending political ups and downs in Quebec that we always face. So my approach has always been one to empower others, to give people room, to take initiative, to innovate, to be creative and to lead. You know, it's something that evolves depending upon the people in the context. So that I say, yeah, the one thing I'm most proud of truly is the people, the relationships, and the culture of collaboration that's taken root and keeps growing. The collaboration wasn't there before we were end. I think in in many ways, the CLCs are better understood outside the education community than inside the education community.

Chris Colley: 29:12

Great, right. I mean, there's still work to be done, but I love that example that you gave, Debbie, about the relationships are there. They're they're there and they're finding one another as time rolls on because the circle keeps getting bigger. I think that's a true testament. It kind of brings us, you know, full circle here. I guess my last question, Debbie, kind of reflecting on on you know what has happened in the past and maybe future looking, you've you've uh created an amazing team, and and I I get that love and the relationship that is there amongst either through attending a CL CL CLC conference or you know, just hanging out with you guys socially sometimes. You know, like it's you have that relationship that you've instilled in in the team. Greater across Quebec. What are you hoping that they carry keep carrying forward in the CLC initiative as you kind of take a knee and and let leader other leadership to take place? Where are you at with that?

Debbie Horrocks: 30:17

As I look ahead, I hope that the next generation of educators and community leaders will continue to see our English schools as catalysts for community engagement and renewal. The landscape is changing. The declining demographics is still a challenge, enrollment issues, increased use of technology gets people from, you know, takes away from that connectivity, and the social norms are shifting. But to me, education and community must remain inseparable. Communities and schools need leaders who embrace collaboration, who are always asking who else needs to be at the table? How can our community schools be the place where everyone feels they belong? My biggest hope is that one day every school will be a community school and that people will continue to approach this work with heart and passion.

Chris Colley: 31:11

Yeah. Well, Debbie, I want to thank you. You will never be forgotten. You're going to be greatly missed. But you're leaving such a legacy and so many seeds and so many people, and have developed relationships with so many people in schools and communities that I mean, you'll live on in everything that we do as we go forward. I wish you an amazing retirement as well. It's well deserved. You have been a trooper out there on the front line for decades, fighting for community and schools and vitality and the English community. And that will never be forgotten, no matter what happens in the future. It's been really, really great having you share your thoughts about the past and into the future. It's been a real privilege to work with you and a real privilege to have this little bit of time to talk with you as well. So I thank you for that.

Debbie Horrocks: 32:08

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. My passion comes out through emotions. So I yeah.

Chris Colley: 32:17

We love you for it. We've always needed that passion, and seeing it and feeling it is amazing.

Debbie Horrocks: 32:25

I just wear it up my sleeve.

Chris Colley: 32:27

Thanks so much, Debbie.

Debbie Horrocks: 32:29

Thank you.