Chris Colley: 0:03

Welcome everyone back to another episode of Shift Ed Podcast, uh where we kind of look at the changing landscape of education. Um not only here in Quebec, but but worldwide. Um we tend to ebb and flow in the same waves uh as most other countries in in the world, uh how education is uh uh deployed and and and sent to us. Um I have Dr. Sabba Quidwai with me today, um, who uh has this wonderful book called Designing Schools, How to Design Thinking That Makes You Irreplaceable in the Age of AI frames. I just wanted to say thank you first off, Saba, for for accepting to come join me here on this cast and uh to share some of your insight and your mindset about education in AI.

Sabba Quidwai: 0:53

Of course. No, I'm so honored to be here. And I'm really grateful to people like you who are kind of you know at advancing these conversations and you know, just being that catalyst in their communities.

Chris Colley: 1:03

Awesome. Well, thank you very much. I I mean it's it's a pleasure for me. I get to talk to all these amazing people. And so, Sabba, as we kind of dive into our conversation, I tend to like to start off with a little foundational kind of recall of yours as to what were some of those moments that kind of brought you to where you are today? Um dealing with, you know, uh redesigning school ideas, the AI integration. Like I know you started as a as a as a school teacher. Um what what were some of the the moments along that timeline that brought you to where you are today?

Sabba Quidwai: 1:40

I think it was really the beginning of my career as an educator. You know, I graduated, I would say, in like 2007. And, you know, just a couple months later, it was the recession. And, you know, so with my first job, basically came my first layoff notice. And so it was a very um like jarring start almost to like my career. It's like, you know, you start, you get a job, especially as a teacher. You're like, oh, I'm gonna teach at the school for like X number of years, you decorate your classroom, you like get to know your students, like you do all these things. And then, you know, just a couple months later, it was like, sorry, you're not gonna be here anymore. And so it was just a very um unexpected start to my career. And, you know, that would kind of be the story of my career for the next few years. And it really wasn't until I got settled about four or five years later, actually, like I think year three, I was like, okay, I think I need to like change professions. This is like not working out. And I was looking at marketing and I came across a book called Lynchpin by Seth Godin. And in that book, basically, he talked a lot about how the world of work has changed. It's not anymore just about go to school, get good grades, and you know, everything's like happily ever after. It's like you really have to know your value proposition, like what value do you bring to the table? But not just know your strengths, know your value, also how are you gonna articulate that? What problems have you solved? What how will you contribute to an organization? Like, and what is that, I guess, more purpose-driven work that drives you and like that intersection of like what do you get at? What can you do? And like also where are you gonna make money? And so I was like, oh, okay, like I can do that. And so when I started reframing just sort of like myself and I started thinking about things in a different way, um, it was it was crazy how overnight almost that after reading Lynchpin, I never actually applied for another position ever again. It was like after that, I was always being recruited because another really big part of Seth Godin's work is to share your work, right? To talk about your process, to document what you're doing. And so I started blogging and I started at that time, you know, X now, but Twitter back then was the really big place for educators. And I was just like writing and writing and sharing like just my own reflections and things I was doing. And so I got recruited by by USC, later on Apple. And and it just was one of those moments where I was like, wow, like there's so many things that people can teach you. Like when I look back now at my trajectory, every single thing that's happened could have been taught to me. I don't call it an accident. Like I think it's very much like serendipity, like really driven by just curiosity and leaning into like, wait a minute, there's a problem here. Like, how can I solve this problem? Like, what can we do? And you realize like that curiosity is just such a timeless skill. And it's something that really can be taught to people at a younger age. And I think that really, it's really more than my experience as an educator. It's my experience as a student and a graduate, and then having to navigate that world of work because I always say 2007, while a ton of us were like, you know, struggling in the economy with the recession and whatnot, Steve Jobs launched the iPhone. 2008 was when the app store came out. So we were going through like such a huge inflection point in just how we work, communicate, live. Like today, to think to even call the app economy like an inflection point or something revolutionary sounds crazy because there's not a day that goes by where people don't use apps for something, but that wasn't true before 2008, you know? And so having lived through those changes at that time, I think I there's a lot there that you can apply to what's happening now with AI. And that's kind of what I've done like the last 10 years, I guess, is think more deeply about that.

Chris Colley: 4:52

Absolutely. And and as I was mentioning, I mean, your podcast really gets into that frame of mind and that mindset of how can we get it working for us and how can we embrace it rather than having you know this disillusion as to what it might be. Um, instead of seeing what it can do, playing with it, experimenting with it, and letting that lead the way rather than preconceived you know, sentences or one-offs that you've heard, like I will replace you one day, like teachers if you don't adapt, you know, like those kinds of like just seem to be more of a scare tactic rather than uh this is important for our generations coming for us to know so that they know um the nuts and bolts and what's under that hood. But I think before I dive into that, because I love your idea of designing schools, or I would say redesigning schools. We know the cycle of education, the expectations anyway, and it they've been like this for centuries. Uh some would even argue longer than centuries, where we think that going to school, filling our brains up, getting a job, live happily ever after, that's the flow of life. We know nowadays that is not the case at all. We have graduation rates here in Quebec anyway, under 50%. And those that go to C Jepper universities or like college level, university level, don't even complete them, right? Again, it's about half that complete them. So it's a half of a half that we're putting all this energy and all of our system attention into. How can we change that flow where the student is no longer just a vessel to be filled with knowledge and content, but that we develop, as you were saying, the skills and developing how do I manage in this world that is ever evolving? What do I need to do? Where where do you start with that explanation or that shifting of mindsets that we need to start doing pretty dramatically, I say, because technology, like you said, I mean, 20 less than 20 years ago, iPhones were nowhere to be had, no cells, no nothing. And then all of a sudden, poof, and everything changes, yet we don't change the way we teach our kids.

Sabba Quidwai: 7:21

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like one of the first places I always like to start is um really beginning to lean into and knowing your strengths. I think, you know, if you are going to navigate uncertainty, ambiguity, and things that can be very intimidating, like I feel like right now is for a lot of people, one of the most important things to have is language to be able to speak to yourself about why there is a place for you amidst this change, even though it might feel like it's giving you a lot of anxiety, might feel like it's making you nervous, or maybe it's making you really excited. You know, that this applies to both ends of the spectrum. You have to have language to be able to talk to yourself about where you see your role, how you're gonna navigate this, and and and why this is an opportunity for you or how you're gonna navigate this challenge. And so one of the things that I'm a really big fan of is really helping people lean into their strengths. I don't think we spend enough time. Like I feel like, you know, I always say for every conversation you have about AI, you should be having double the number of conversations about people, their skills, and their strengths. And so I think most of us, like if you ask people, for example, like one of my favorite questions that we do in a workshop is we say, you know, um, share the top three strengths or skills that you bring to the table. Like, why is this organization lucky to have you, but they're lucky to have me because of one, two, three. And a lot of people are very like nervous about saying that. A lot of people don't have the language to articulate that about themselves. And so I think this is a very important starting place. And there's always two resources I like to share. Number one is the Spark Type by Jonathan Fields. It's completely free. And what I love about the spark type compared to like a Myers Briggs or some of the other ones is it talks about what energizes you. Like this is what drives you, motivates you, gets you up in the morning. This is the kind of work you do, whether you've been paid or not paid. And to me, that's not only language to speak to yourself in about your strengths, it's also direction for where you might find yourself in today's world. So this is the first one. The second one I really like. Um, this is a paid one, though. It's the Gallup Clifton strengths. And again, I like these because not only do they talk about your strengths, but they also talk about your blind spots. So, like, yes, this is a really good quality you have, but you should look out for this thing just in case, you know, because this could happen too. And so these kinds of things help us become more self-aware. And this allows us to now have a different lens with which we see different kinds of emerging, whether it's technologies or just honestly like life in general, relationships, no matter what you're navigating. So, this is my first one. Another activity we like to do is we like to have um individuals interview people about um what do you think my top three strengths are, right? So you might go to a professor, you might go to a teacher, you might go to your mom or dad or a sibling or a friend or a family member or a mentor. Like, you know, there's so many different people around us, a coach, there's so many different people, but pick three people, go to each of those people and be like, what do you think my top three skills and strengths are? And for each one, don't just take a list of like three skills or strengths, but ask them to tell you a story about why. All of these things really reinforce our confidence and our belief in ourselves so that when we look at like, okay, this is changing, this is changing, but wait a minute, somebody told me I'm really good at this, this, and this. That is how you basically um this is one of the first things, steps that I think you can be able to take. Then once you have that information, then it's a matter of like, what kinds of projects can you be a part of that are going to become evidence for you of those skills and strengths that you have? So obviously, like, you know, within schools, this is really the direction we would like to see kids building things, creating things, identifying problems and being able to lean into those strengths, but not in isolation, right? This is sort of like, you know, whether you're adults working on a team, whether you're kids working on a project, being able to be like, I'm good at this, you're good at this, you're good at this. How are we going to come together and collaborate to build something that individually we couldn't have done on our own? And this is actually very important because now we have a new like alien group of people in the mix with AIs. And this is the AI's responsibility as well on the team. I'm good at this, this, and this. And so now sometimes this is where the friction comes. A lot of the things that our AI tools are good at are the things that we think we should be doing, right? Well, I should be making the slide deck. I should be writing this, I should be doing this. I don't know. Should you? Should you be the person maybe who's becoming more aware about the environment and people you're designing for, leaning more into their needs, their interests, their challenges, so that you can go back to the writing teammate with the AI tool and be like, hey, here's all this information, all this data. Let's make some sense out of this, right? Now I'm gonna refine it because I'm the one with the insight. The AI is not interacting with people, I'm interacting with people. That's my strength, that's my skill I'm bringing to the table. You have another skill over here. So I think at a time when um, you know, AI tools are are really leaning into these are our strengths, and this is what we bring to the table. This is what we do. I think as people, we have to double down on what are those things that make us unique. And I think a lot of that goes back to number one, which is what are your strengths, what are your skills, what are those unique things you bring to the table?

Chris Colley: 12:10

Because we also love how you bring to that human aspect, you know, it's so key. Particularly at the start of years, we talk to teachers a lot about the relationship building that you need to have. In those, you're create, you know, you're creating and developing these skills that no machine is gonna replace. Like they just won't, you know. Like I always told my kids when I was teaching, like a computer will never tell you it loves you, you know, like don't anticipate anything like that, however much you love it. Um it still has its part in our and there's no humanity really behind it. It all comes from us.

Sabba Quidwai: 12:48

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So these are just like nice starting places. Then from there, there's so many other spaces you can go, but these are I think two important starting places.

Chris Colley: 12:56

Totally. Yeah, I love too that the creativity, the resilience, the teamwork, um, you know, ability to inspire others, to collaborate. Like we don't give kids enough practice in these, and I think all skills need practice to develop. Um which brings me in Walks AI is that it is a skill that we're developing with our interaction with AI. Um could you put a bit of meat on the bone of that statement? That without our understanding and our creativity and our our humanity almost, AI will just be uh what people might perceive as like a first layer is like, oh, it's for cheating, oh, it's for cutting corners, oh it's like in the event when you don't understand something, you'll go to what you've heard about it. But bringing your humanity into it actually develops what it can do much more. Can you can you speak to that a bit, Saba?

Sabba Quidwai: 13:56

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I think today, so like we just I we keep saying today, so we should say what today is. So today is October 6th, it's a Monday, and um, you know, just about like a couple hours ago, it was OpenAI's uh dev day. Um, and I was just listening to the keynote this morning. And I think, you know, one of the challenges I think we see is that obviously the tools cost money, right? And if you're gonna try to try a bunch of the different tools, I mean you're looking easily at a couple hundred dollars like every single month, right? Which is which is hard for for many, many people. And so I always say, like, if you're not going to um, if if you're not able to sort of like purchase the tools, or even if you can purchase them, but you don't have time to be playing with them all day long and experimenting and whatnot, um, you you should really be watching and paying attention to these keynotes because I think these keynotes and these talks that these companies do give you enough direction and language for where the technology is going. And you know, it's about like an hour of your time, like every, you know, couple of weeks or so, but you you you can have your pulse on on what's happening. Okay. So, for example, today, if we were looking at OpenAI's Dev Day, one of the things I often share in like education that I see is another challenge is I think people are too worried about thinking, right? Like they're worried, oh, no one's gonna be thinking anymore, nobody's gonna be do that. Right now, I think you could argue even pre-Chat GPT, it's not about thinking that's the problem, it's agency, right? It's it's do are you able to act? Are you able to create? Are you able to build? Are you able to speak? And when you look at these things, like people who can act, speak, people who have high agency are people who are thinking all the time, right? They're constantly connecting dots, they're constantly looking at what I can create, what can I contribute? I see something here, I'm gonna do something about it, right? And this all takes thinking. Now you you need to go back and like learn things for what you're gonna do and figure things out and whatnot. So you're constantly thinking. Whereas just because somebody's writing a few pages down does not mean that they are like actively thinking or contributing or really building that skill set. And that's why a lot of times when you ask people like, oh, tell me more in person, they can't speak, right? Sometimes we can write essay after essay after essay, but okay, explain that to me in another way or connect this to something else, and they can't do that. And so this to me is something that I think is a bit of a mismatch in what we're looking at right now. And the reason I say this is because agency, right? The ability to do, act, make decisions, and whatnot is the number one goal for these AI tools. It's not just to have them have intelligence and have them help you write an essay. So I think what you're talking about with that challenge of people not having awareness of what the technology is capable of, is you then live in a false reality, right? Now that sense of urgency isn't there for you about what we need to adapt, what we need to do. And also you don't know that how much support you have, right? I mean, that the tools are incredibly powerful from a design perspective. Yes, there are many challenges with them sometimes in other areas, but I mean, I always say like you shouldn't be using them like a search engine, anyways. Like it's not Google. You know, you should have your own way of doing research and knowledge curation and things like that. But from a design and a creation perspective, these tools, in my opinion, are better than people. I think, you know, and I think when we do compare, I think when people are comparing the technology, they're not comparing it to the average person. They're comparing it to the best of the best of the best person in the world, which is like maybe like your top 10% of people, right? So if you want to say AI is a competitor to the top 10%, probably not. But is it a competitor to maybe 70% of people? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can walk into, I mean, you just look at look at look around us, right? I'm three years into this technology, and people are still like, what should we do? Right? Like, oh, I don't know how to figure out the essay. I don't know how to figure out XYZ. But you can ask Chad GPT and it can come up with that answer for you in a 10 minutes or so. But the the challenge though, it can't execute, it can't go to your class and interact with your kids, at least not yet, right? But I think we are starting to see with this advancement of agents, I think, you know, learning people realize how much. I mean, there was just a report that came out by OpenAI a couple of weeks ago, um, looking at consumer use. So, not like workplace use. That was a separate report, but consumer use and learning with the tools is one of the number one things people want to do, not just learning about like algebra, but how to do my taxes, like practical things people are looking for.

Chris Colley: 17:56

Well, the stat was too, it's a great stat. 73% use it for non-work related. And that's up from 53% a year earlier. So like 20% added on to non-work related just in a year. It's crazy.

Sabba Quidwai: 18:10

Like it's yeah, it really is. So I think it's starting to embed itself. Yeah, yeah. Both the use of the tools, but I think also looking at the data. And you know, we kind of always tell people if you're somebody who operates with this mindset that the tools are gonna be better than us, you know, you really you really feel that sense of urgency and you double down, you're learning more, playing more, like just figuring more out about, you know, what's gonna happen to my role and like what what is my place gonna be and what opportunity is out there for me, too. But if if you're the kind of person who is like, no, this is all hype. No, I'm just gonna keep doing my five-paragraph essay and I don't want to change anything and thinking is what matters more than taking my flip phone away.

Chris Colley: 18:48

No way.

Sabba Quidwai: 18:49

Yeah, exactly. I feel like that person is so vulnerable because the person who believes that yes, it's gonna be, you know, this completely different way of working and living, the only bad thing that happens to that person is they double down and became a better version of themselves. But the person who believes this is hype doesn't become the best version of themselves. AI becomes this amazing version, and now you're just left so vulnerable. And I think what's really different about this technology compared to others, it's not gonna wait for you. Like I always say, if you deployed Chromebooks in 2014 or 2020, I don't know that it made that much of a difference. The strategy was kind of similar, like it might have gotten easier and whatnot. But with AI, a six-year gap, I personally don't think most people will be able to recover and catch up to that kind of uh thing. Even if I look at Chad GPT in 2023 compared to what it is today in just two years, I don't, I think it's a very hard thing to learn now and wrap your head around.

Chris Colley: 19:46

Totally, totally. I mean, I just did a workshop where we're looking at creating simulations in AI. Um, we were mainly looking through the lens of science, but the teacher it was with consultants and they're very um nervous as to what to put in. And once they saw the results, you could see the creativity start to mount and mount and mount. I think it takes a taste, or that they find the right use for it, you know, and that they they latch onto it. I mean, there's so many ways that you can do that that it's hard to I mean, it's overwhelming in a way, right? Because it is so new and advancing a click that we've never seen in technology anyway. The turnovers just really fast. How do you how do you get teachers to kind of lower the barriers a little bit to be able to open themselves to shifting their mindsets towards AI a little bit anyway? What how do you how do you do that in a practical way?

Sabba Quidwai: 20:48

So yeah, I mean, I can tell you kind of what we do in 60 minutes and like it has yet to fail. Um I think number one, like I said, getting getting clear on the AI landscape. This I see every single place I go. Um and I really want to credit Google Gemini here because if it had not been for Gemini giving their platform out to everybody, I don't think I could do what I do and show people as easily as I do. Because it's one thing for me to sit there and demo these tools to you. It's another for me to be able to put it in your hand and be like, you tell me what you want and you go do it. This is a night and day. And prior to Google Gemini, there wasn't really any place somebody could go to experience the full depth of a foundation model without having to pay money. And so it just was really hard. Um, so I so what we start with, first of all, is let's get a clear view on what this technology is and what the goal is. And I think for a lot of people, I've noticed they're very intimidated or afraid to take that kind of story to people because they think it's going to scare them. What I personally have found is the more upfront you are and the more you raise the bar and the and the the more sort of not challenging the narrative, but the more authentic you are about what's going on, the more receptive people are. When you try to dumb down the story, then that's where people are just like, wait a minute, what is going on? What is this and whatnot? And of course, who wouldn't do that? Right. If my only experience of AI was magic school or brisk, where I'm pushing a bunch of random buttons and getting like average content, I too would be like, what in the world is going on? What kind of technology is this that people think is gonna change the world, right? Of course that's gonna be your impression of it. You haven't had a real experience. So that's the first thing we do is we get really clear that, like, look, this is not about thinking, this is not about intelligence, this is about agency. And there's a lot of data that shows how low agency is in people. So to live in a world where we're watching agency skyrocket in machines, but agency fall in people, this is a very dangerous world to be building and sort of like living in. So that's sort of the first piece that we clarify what's actually going on. Then the next thing we do is we put them directly into an experience using um uh I have a framework called Spark. And Spark is basically just an empathy interview. So we ask people, what's your situation? Tell me what you do, who you are, what's your problem? Give me something that like literally is a problem or barrier for you right now. What's your aspiration? If everything was to go really well and that problem was solved, what would it look like? What would happen? And what result would you want to see that would that would show you, oh my God, wow, like my problem is being solved or we're moving in a positive direction. The last one is K. This is what we call kismeth. And this is basically like the serendipity of the universe. Like, okay, I have no idea what the answers is. Like, I don't know how to solve this or create this. You know, put it into your AI tool, give me three to four ideas for what I can do. So we're not asking for an answer. We're asking for some inspiration for some ideas that we as people can vet. So it's this back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And there's one very key thing to this exercise, and that is that interview that we do in the beginning is done either by walking and talking, it's done via like a like a conversation with people. Obviously, anybody can use Spark and do it individually. But the point of having people not use technology and just interview each other and then come back to the technology and then go back to talking to each other is at the end we ask them if I had to show you in this lesson, in this short exercise, what thinking looked like, what human collaboration looked like, we could pinpoint it, right? Can you do that with your lesson? And so this is just so eye-opening for people. Like, whoa, first of all, like we're still talking and we still like had a part. And then also it's not just giving us an answer that we're just blindly taking. Like, not only do you have to have critical thinking and evaluating the responses, but you've also got to continue the conversation. The AI just came up with the idea. There's 50 more things that need to happen after that first idea is kind of vetted. And so that really is so eye-opening for people. And then, and then the piece in the beginning that we talk about with agency and AI is not a tool, it's your teammate, not one teammate, many, many, many teammates that are gonna join your org. It is so such a new um way of thinking about the technology for people that it completely shifts their mindset. And now they're in a bit different space simply because we brought the authentic version of everything to them instead of some like watered down version of a technology that is misrepresentative of what it is.

Chris Colley: 25:08

I love too that it it it begins with you. You know, it's it's not about the stuff and the this and the that, it's about asking questions that people can obviously answer and then slowly infusing and then going back to it again. All right, let's go back to our humanity again. Like, I love that that idea of mixing those two together so that there are it blurred, you know, the lines are a bit blurred without without you know not showing anything. Um my final question, this has been so fascinating. I mean, uh, we could I could probably ask you questions until late, late. Um, but I want to respect our time, Sab. I I again thanks so much. I really appreciate your insight and your passion for this. Um where where do we go from here that you see? Where does school rethinking AI I know it's a loaded question. I mean, where do you start to make sense of all of that looking five to ten years down the road?

Sabba Quidwai: 26:11

Yeah, you know, I always sort of say this is very contextual to where you live, right? So, like if you're in the United States or you know, Canada or Dubai or Singapore or you know, uh like Zimbabwe or Tanzania, like I mean, it doesn't matter where you are, like your context really, really, really matters. And this is one of the things that I really look to the Scandinavian countries to, because one of the things that the Scandinavian people truly have is a real value and a real prioritization of people. Everybody says we value people, human skills, blah, blah, blah. But when you look at laws, policies, these things, it's not even remotely reflective. Uh I've only been to Finland from the different Scandinavian countries, but it's one place, right? When you go in, you know, when Finland was celebrating their 100-year anniversary, they they re- they uh built a library called UDI Library. And UDI Library and the government building are at an equal level. And the reason they're equal is because government and education, they believe, go hand in hand. And one of the reasons they really believe that is people in that country really believe that people are their ultimate human, like capital. Like, like our people are it. Like we got to invest everything in them because our people are it. And so, you know, I know a lot of people like, you know, look to Finland, like, oh, look how much trust they have in this and that. But the trust doesn't what came first. What came first was their fundamental core belief in that people are our most important resource and we must do everything we can for them no matter what. So I think where you live really, really, really matters. Um, and this is also just to go on a little tangent, why I think being knowledgeable about the technology is really important because today we can move anywhere, we can live anywhere, like it's not always easy, but those options are available to you if you're like, wait a minute, I don't know if I see a future in XYZ for where I am. I think I might be better off here. Now is the time to start planning and making those decisions because you've got a couple of years to do so versus waiting five years, being stuck in something, and then it's very, very, very difficult to do those kinds of things and make those moves then. So I would say number one, context really matters for what the future is going to look like and what it's going to look like for people within that space. Second, I think people should get really comfortable with the idea that AI tools are going to be as good as them. Um, I I think if you just look at, you know, like I said, what's happened in the last like two, three years, and you also look at like even just today's dev day, it is very clear the goal is to have computers act and think like humans. And so leaning into what do I do that is not replaceable? And just because something's replaceable doesn't mean that that's automatically gone. There's a real human premium on things that people will want from people in spaces by and with people. And so I think just not living in like a false reality, like I always believe like everyone should operate with like like expect, what do they say? Like expect the best, but hope for the worst. I think that is like a really important mindset to have in this moment because again, in the end, the only person who's gonna win no matter what scenario is you. But the person who doesn't have that mindset, you you're running a you're running a 50-50 bet. And that 50% that you lose, that that's it's just gonna be miserable. And so I think when you move step by step by step, doesn't mean you have to go all in on AI, doesn't mean you have to like become an AI hype person, doesn't mean you have to like, you know, buy every single tool, but it means that you should start building a knowledge base, that you should be watching these keynotes, you should understand what people's goals are in these companies and understand the relationship between policy and technology and whatever industry it is that you are in.

unknown: 29:44

Amazing.

Chris Colley: 29:45

Well, I mean, knowledge is power and knowledge is power.

Sabba Quidwai: 29:48

That's education, right? Nelson Mandela. That's why you said, right? Education is the most powerful weapon that we have in the world. And so that's what I tell people too. This is not about liking AI or hating AI. This is just knowledge is power to make decisions. For whatever life it is you want to design.

Chris Colley: 30:02

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I feel that your knowledge that you've shared with today has made us all smarter. Saba.

Sabba Quidwai: 30:08

Thank you for having me.

Chris Colley: 30:09

It's been a real treat. Go check out Saba's website, uh, designingschools.org. I'll put it in the uh blog post and in the comment section. Um, and I'll also link up to those two resources that you suggested. I think those are great. I like the spark. Um this has been a great, great time. I hope we can do this again one day, Saba. I mean, I just feel like we're getting going here, but um, I really appreciate your insight and your thoughtfulness.

Sabba Quidwai: 30:37

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me.