Chris Colley: 0:13

Well, welcome everyone. Yeah, we're shit that podcast here coming to you, beautiful, almost fall day coming to us, and I have Dr Burke with us here and she is a part of the UDL Katie Novak, but she also has her own consulting firm, dr Burke Consulting, and she's so amazing on this UDL equity, inclusion and belonging that I just had to have her come in at the start of this new school year, just so our lovely teachers out there have this in their minds as they're preparing and creating these relationships with students and their new colleagues they might have, so that everybody kind of gets off on the same foot. So, dr Burke, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time out of your day to come share some of your ideas with us.

Dr. Burke: 1:00

Yes, thank you for having me. I'm super excited and I love what you said. Perfect timing right. While everyone's still invigorated and excited to get their school year started. Hopefully, some of these things will plant some seeds that will help them grow throughout the year.

Chris Colley: 1:13

Love it. I know it will. We're here to get smarter and I know that you're going to do that through our time together here today. Together here today. So I guess I would like to start Dr Burke about how did you get to where you are? How did equity, inclusion and belonging and UDL, how did you get into that lane in education and the work that you do now?

Dr. Burke: 1:40

So it actually started for myself. As a middle school student I was in a busing program we called it Mecco in Massachusetts where I was taken on raising the projects. But I was taking a bus into the suburban school districts and from that very early start I remember just thinking like, even though I don't look like these people, there's got to be some common ground of how we can all be together successfully and have this effective cultural binding. And so from there I had this. There's just this thing that laid in the bottom of my soul. I honestly couldn't name it. I was too young, I didn't know what it was. But when I decided to become an educator, then I read the book Other People's Children, Lisa Delpit. Just something clicked for me in that. This is what I was thinking all this time is like you don't have to share a culture to be able to be culturally competent with other people.

Dr. Burke: 2:30

And so that was kind of the nest egg for me where I wanted to really focus on this idea of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. That's really important, that we have a sense of belonging. And then I was passionate about DEI for a long time. And then it's actually in the current climate within the last five years or so, where DEI has been under attack a little bit.

Dr. Burke: 2:50

I started adopting this mindset where I think of it, because I'm a mother of a teenage boy who I struggled to get him to eat his vegetables all the time. But I always think of you know what, when I slide them in the lasagna or on the pizza. I don't care that he doesn't realize it, like he's still eating his vegetables. And that's how I felt about DEI is like I don't really need the titles, I don't need it to be called DEI, but I still need us to do this work of making sure that we all have a sense of belonging and we're all treating each other equally. And that's when I, the UDL lens, feels like that to me, right, so it might come under a different guise, but if you're still eating your vegetables, you are still making sure access for all and that everyone has this sense of belonging and has their potential to be their best selves.

Chris Colley: 3:32

So for me it was a nice marriage of the DEI work and the UDL work, which is all in essence of the same goals, totally totally, and I mean in that spirit, starting this new school year, I often talk to teachers about the foundation of relationship building as your first homework. You know, you gotta, you gotta grab the kids, you've got to engage with them, you've got to show that they belong right. So, important, important, how do you go about those beginning? Because, I mean, universal design for learning is all about, you know, widening the classroom wall so that everyone feels included. Now we can say this I mean and it sounds super idealistic how do you, what are some concrete steps that you can maybe throw out there for us, about the concreteness of what you can do right today in your class, to get students to start to feel that sense that they belong there?

Dr. Burke: 4:33

The first piece of advice I've always given for years. When I first started this DEI work because I know myself I felt inundated with this idea that it meant I had to learn every culture of every scholar I ever came across, and that's a big ask and that's doing a lot right. So I think the first thing we do that's concrete is let go of that guilt of feeling like it's this responsibility, that someone's asking you to become an expert in every child's culture. What the real thing you can do is and of course, there are some concrete inventories of what your kids like but it's really about just being okay with wearing your heart on your sleeve and saying I don't know, tell me, and letting them have this place where they can co-create their own sense of belonging by you saying you, tell me, what makes you feel good, how do you want to be approached, how do you, what do you want to be referred to, what name do you go by? It's just that sense of like I don't know it all, but I'm so happy to learn and find out and allow it.

Dr. Burke: 5:31

Sometimes teachers feel like they wear this cape of like I have to come in having the answers and know it all. So I got to be prepared. That's a huge burden. That is way too much for any one person. Just be okay saying I don't know, I've never heard of that before. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? I think that's really the first concrete stuff right, right, I love that.

Chris Colley: 5:47

I love that and in a sense too, like I agree with you that teachers I was a teacher for many, many years and you just always feel like you have to have the answer right and if you don't have the answer, oh my goodness, like we've created this kind of false idea of what a teacher should and shouldn't be. So I guess my next, like you did a ton of research around this cultural thing competency that you had framed it and how it intersects with the UDL approach Could you expand on that? A?

Dr. Burke: 6:20

bit for us, dr Burke. Yeah, so I look at UDL as the framework for how to design flexible pathways and culturally responsive teaching. Is this idea of why those pathways are important to honor identity, the lived experiences of our scholars, right? So like, for example, in UDL, we say multiple means of engagement, that's all about recruiting interest and building a sense of purpose, and it's not just choice for the sake of choice, like oh, I want to give kids the option to do things, but it's the opportunity to actually to connect with their lives, their lived experiences, their culture, their interests. Because equity isn't this add on to UDL, it's baked in when we design identity and access in mind. It's like kids don't just need access to learning, they need to see themselves in it. So them as a nice marriage, like the peanut butter and jelly. They go so well together. Like you need to know the why and then the how.

Chris Colley: 7:20

I love that Great analogy too, dr Burke. That's amazing. And what are you finding some of those biggest barriers in this regard? Like I know, it's not easy, right, like our words seem like, oh, you just snap your fingers and no, no, no. This takes a lot of work and planning. And how do you get around those structures and barriers of standard education so that every student has that feeling?

Dr. Burke: 7:50

Yeah, I love that you said this seems so easy, right, because we all think that, like it comes in a spray bottle and if you spray it it's a meaning like, oh, like, now'm aware I've got a little training, I went to a PD like, really, but really the part is that we have to.

Dr. Burke: 8:05

It's a paradigm shift from fixing the scholar to fixing the environment, right. And so the barriers of that are the mindset, because shifting mindset is a lot of work for some people. And then I would say another barrier is the weight of compliance, right, like I hear so many teachers say, how am I supposed to do this when, ultimately, I'm expected to teach to these standardized tests and fit this much curriculum and I have to get to these standards? So this idea of compliance weighs heavy on educators and so they feel like they can't do UDL. And then another big barrier is initiative fatigue, because, let's be honest, we are in the wave of like there have been so many things that come and go in education, of like this is the next big it right, name the acronym, fill in the blank, like ooh, this is what we're all doing, we're all buying into it, and then 10 years later it's no longer the thing.

Chris Colley: 8:58

And then a new spray bottle, as you say Exactly.

Dr. Burke: 9:02

And neuroscience is telling us that, while UDL is based on neuroscience and we know that this thing is going to stick, unfortunately it's debunking things that we also thought were sticking.

Dr. Burke: 9:14

There are tons of educational frameworks and theories that neuroscience is debunking and saying like that's actually not true, like we don't have one type of intelligence you know, as an example of one of the things we need to debunk.

Dr. Burke: 9:26

So people get fatigued with like thinking, like oh, I'm really bought into this, this is what I'm going to do, I'm investing the time, the resources, the effort and now you're telling me this isn't the thing. So it's really hard to get people to buy in and shift that mindset when they have this PTSD of like, how long is this going to last? Like when is this going to be? The old thing too, and I can ask me to adopt. So getting people to get over that PTSD of the fatigue, of the new initiatives and helping them adopt the mindset. And so what I do when I work with teachers is I really talk a lot about the neuroscience so that they can see that this is more than theory, it's more than research, it's more than just evidence-based practices, but it's actual science of how the brain acquires information and how it doesn't right. And when we know those things, how do we respond to that?

Chris Colley: 10:23

And that's what the framework of UDL is asking us to do is to respond to this new knowledge we have of how the brain acquires knowledge. Right, I love that and I mean I totally agree with you that we always are looking for the new flavor of the month. Or you know how can we revolutionize our schools month. Or you know how can we revolutionize our schools? The change behind it oftentimes isn't there. And then another you know new spray bottle comes out the next year. Yeah, how do you go about evaluating if it's having an effect or not? So I bring these. You know, okay, we're doing UDL this year for the next four or five years. How do they know if it is working or not? Like are there? Are there signs that you will see in a building, amongst you know, the peers, the colleagues, that there is this idea that's starting to change the mindsets behind how they're behaving with each other and their students?

Dr. Burke: 11:13

Yes, absolutely. The first thing I would say is we have to stop using the summative standardized data as our North Star, that's, you know. And so if we, if we're only using that as the North Star, then it is going to be a long haul before we see that change immediately, and so we have to be okay with using some of what I like to refer to. I don't know if you're familiar with the text street data, which really looks at some of those really informal touch points that those things are going to change and happen way more quickly than the summative standardized data. So, if we're okay with looking at attendance data, are kids coming to school more often because they have a sense of belonging? Are there less referrals for discipline because kids are able to stay in the class and be a part and acclimate and not be sent out for discipline issues? Are they participating in more school-based activities, school spirit, even the anecdotal things that teachers can see on a regular basis, like wow, this child is actually raising their hand and participating more than they had been.

Dr. Burke: 12:13

Right, it's that small street data that is going to have the impact and that tells us that now we're on the right track and now we can start looking forward to seeing some of the summative data change, but that should never be the North Star of like. That's the end goal, right? Because really our North Star is making sure that we are creating human beings who can be independent learners and navigate the world to the best of their potential. It's not whether we can perform on a standardized test. So if we unpack what our end goal is and then look for some of those touch points along the way like I mentioned attendance, referrals and all of that then we'll start to be able to measure the impact that UDL has had on our instruction.

Chris Colley: 13:02

I love those like concrete examples you're giving Dr Burke like, because it is hard to measure. You know something that's happening within. You know a large organization to pinpoint it to say, oh yeah, kids are attending school more. You know there's less absenteeism, there's more collegial collaboration going on, like all of these you hope, things that are always happening, but being able to put your finger on it and say, through the work we've done, look what what's happening, you know, which is pretty remarkable. I have a little game I want to play with you Now. I went on the Novak education site and there's such a plethora of quotes.

Dr. Burke: 13:38

Yes, dr Novak, yes.

Chris Colley: 13:42

But sometimes they need a little bit more meat on the bone.

Dr. Burke: 13:44

Okay.

Chris Colley: 13:46

I'm going to throw you a quote, and I'd love it if you could expand on that a little bit, because I think they're very insightful. I love it, but a few more words so here's the first one, insightful, I love it. But a few more words. So here's the first one. There are no labels in UDL. There are only fabulous, amazing students with different levels of variability.

Dr. Burke: 14:04

Got it. Yes, that comes from because think about the amount of labels that we put on kids right from the time, and not just the formal ones, like, obviously, if they come in with an IEP or a 504, that's a huge label that follows them around. But even within that, we break down and we see that if kids have traditionally struggled in math or reading, then we call them our struggling students and we say, like they are low end or they have, you know, difficulties accessing this. And so what? We in the UDL mindset we say oh, no, no, in that particular area, in that one standard, this child may not have yet shown proficiency, but that does not mean that they struggle with math. Right, math, like these big concepts, like we're talking the entire content.

Dr. Burke: 14:49

But that happens a lot. I know I'm guilty of it myself, as a first few years in my teaching career too, is I labeled kids as like oh, these are some of my lower readers, so I have to put them in certain groups and provide certain scaffolds and supports automatically, before even like really digging in to see what were their strengths. And so that's really what we mean by. That is where we assume that everyone has some strengths and just because they're not yet shown proficiency yet. Right, because creating the right environment and removing the barriers allows kids to demonstrate proficiency. But unfortunately, because the barriers in the environment has not been conducive, they have not had the platform to yet demonstrate proficiency.

Chris Colley: 15:31

I love the power of. Yet I always tell my teachers use that word more and more and more. Yeah, and I'm a firm believer in that one. If you change that one wording, how you talk with colleagues, how you talk with peers you know your students, peers it's going to bound to do something. Thanks for bringing that up because that is such a huge word. All right, that up because that is such a huge word. All right. All the UDL guidelines in the world won't transform practice if there aren't in service of the belief that all students can learn. Oh yeah, that's a beauty.

Dr. Burke: 16:09

That's with anything right. Where you have people who say I'm doing this with fidelity, and to them their interpretation of fidelity is I've opened the textbook, I've read the teacher manual and I'm going through it just as I've demonstrated to you so far then those guidelines are not going to make any change in your classroom. It starts with having the belief that everyone can and will learn under the right conditions, because once you believe it, then you hold yourself accountable for creating those conditions.

Chris Colley: 17:02

Great, that's so well said and I totally see that too. I mean, it's such a it's a powerful quote. It's a simple quote, but it says you must start to change your mindset and that we have growth mindsets. It's not fixed, we're not born with this one thought in our head and that we have growth mindsets it's not fixed. We're not born with this one thought in our head and that's the way it is. Sorry, no, don't change here, like this growth mindset that's often talked about.

Chris Colley: 17:27

I think that's the epitome of it that Katie Nowak was talking about in that quote that she had said, which I love. Now to kind of bring things to a close and I know this is a big thing to bring things to a close on, but we're living in changing times, dr Burke. We're living in dramatically changing times and what happened five years ago with our culture and societies is transforming again, you know, with the introduction of AI and post-COVID, still kind of like there with us. Yeah, what are your words that you can share with us about how to stay resilient when it seems like there is constant change going on and adaptation, and what can we hold on to that is steady?

Dr. Burke: 18:18

yeah, I love that. It is a good way to end because, being in the history that we have of things changing, I think people just assume that there's still more to come right, like we're only at one of the lulls in this, but then it comes back around and it'll keep being cyclical. So some people have the mentality of I'll just wait for this to go away too and change.

Dr. Burke: 18:39

Others are just holding on for dear life like I hope it doesn't change again. I can't take any more. So I'll say, through all of that is we have to stay grounded in the why right and hold tight to the principles of UDL, not necessarily the specific tools of it, because that's the piece that could change and I leave that open like that absolutely could. Like thinking about what you just said, that example of COVID right During the pandemic, so many teachers panicked because some of their tried and true, their favorite strategies didn't translate to Zoom right and so they just didn't know how to change that. But having the UDL mindset, not this tool right, says you're asking yourself constantly the question what's the goal? What are the flexible pathways? Right, so you can't conduct your beloved, like your Socratic seminar that you've done in person and you just love it. But during the pandemic maybe you shifted to the flip grid discussions, right, so that's a different tool, but it's the same principle of multiple means of engagement. So if you're speaking to that why and not necessarily always the how, because that could definitely be flexible If we went into another pandemic what are multiple ways to allow them to access and then to demonstrate their learning?

Dr. Burke: 20:01

Those grounded whys should never change. That should always be the North Star. But I would also just suggest that that's like for teachers more so, but I was like messages for leaders as well, too, because leaders have to resist the urge to standardize everything. Right, I get it, I was a district leader for so long. It's like we want consistency, we need to make sure, but then we're also saying that we want our teachers to get to know kids and, like, make them have the sense of belonging.

Dr. Burke: 20:29

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that it's going to be a rigid, standardized, where everyone gets the same package. But get to know your kids and make sure you're meeting their needs, right, like so we have to be more flexible in this idea, because fidelity doesn't mean uniformity. Fidelity is the commitment to access engagement and expression. Right, our scholars rely on us to design spaces where learning's possible for everyone, even when the ground is shifting underneath us. Right? So the goal is to build a practice that's so flexible and so human-centered that, no matter what the world throws at us, we're always ready to meet our scholars where they are.

Chris Colley: 21:09

Wow, dr Birkwald, thank you. I mean this is 25 minutes, it goes by like the wind, but I think all those seeds that you threw out there, I mean they're going to take root. They're already taking root. I think a lot of what you said to reinforces the kinds of things we feel. But you know, sometimes structures and the outside gets in the way of our beliefs and what we know is right for our kids. So I thank you so much for throwing those out there and I know my listeners are going to appreciate this as a as a refresher and a stimulating conversation to kind of get the year going. So I really appreciate your time and thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Burke: 21:53

Thank you, I appreciate you having me so much.