Chris Colley: 0:15

Welcome back to another episode, another school season of Shifted Podcast podcast. We have a lifer Quebecer, montrealer, Joe Ortona from EMSB, chair of the governing board and also president of the Quebec English School Board Association and a real advocate for Anglo services and education within Quebec. And I asked Joe to come on here because I know he dabbles a lot with all of these bills and charters and amendments that are happening in our schools presently and I thought it would be a good kind of refresher or so that we're all on the same page and we start to understand a little bit better. I think knowledge is power and Joe is going to share a lot of that knowledge with us today. So, joe, thanks so much for hopping on here today and taking a bit of time to share some of your thoughts and ideas about the English education system in Quebec.

Joe Ortona: 1:17

Well, thanks for having me on. I'm really looking forward to it.

Chris Colley: 1:21

So, Joe, maybe just to kind of build a little bit of foundation. Like I mentioned, I mean you grew up in the Montreal area. You've been a part of Quebec fabric for your career and your personal life as well. How did you come into the roles that you're in now, as you know, the president of the Quebec English School Board Association, also the chairman of the EMSB governing board. How did those come to you?

Joe Ortona: 1:54

You know, to be honest, it actually first started kind of by chance In 2014,. People were looking for candidates, uh, uh, young parents, young families that were moving in that area a little closer to my age, and he was really the first one who approached me about it. Uh, prior to that, I had never given it, um, I had never given it any thought, uh, to be honest, but, but it kind of intrigued me. And then, as I it at any thought, uh, to be honest, but but it kind of intrigued me. And then, as I, as I learned about it, um it, it was something that was interesting to me. And then I wound up saying, you know, why not give it a shot, just to try something new? And it turned out. I, I very much enjoyed it and I've never regretted it since. And I, I went from being the school commissioner to, eventually, the chair of the English Montreal School Board and then, you know, eventually president of the Quebec English School Boards Association.

Chris Colley: 3:15

Amazing and, Joe, what's your drive behind English education in Quebec? In Quebec, like personally, like what, what, what gets you going about that? And and the passion that you have for it, um is evident in in our community. Um, can you, can you explore a little bit of that with us?

Joe Ortona: 3:37

Um sure, I mean. I mean, my drive was, uh, as soon as I started to get involved, I quickly saw that, you know, our, our cultural identity is, is is really overshadowed by the French speaking majority in Quebec and and our and our identity is, is still important and and we still contribute greatly to Quebec society. You know, we, as an English speaking community, we promote bilingualism and we want to strengthen Quebec society but also recognize that Quebec society is diverse and we want to build on that inclusive society and ensure that, you know, the students that come through our system, you know, have those opportunities where they can become, you know, lifelong Quebecers and be able to not only study here but be able to work here and be successful and fully bilingual, to be able to speak English and French proficiently, right right, and are you seeing where, when kids graduate in an English school or in an English school board, what's the likelihood of them actually staying in Quebec versus going elsewhere?

Chris Colley: 5:04

And what are some of the things that we could do in the educational system that would draw them, to make them feel like to stay rather than to decide OK, I'm going to go to another province or another country because our graduation rates are really great. They're up there. How do we keep those kids from leaving and wanting to stay here?

Joe Ortona: 5:27

Yeah, um that's a great question. A lot of that, however, that goes to, the government of Quebec as well. I mean, our responsibility is it be able to educate children who have opportunities all over the world. If that's possible, I think that that's great. What we don't want is people leaving because they don't have any options here in Quebec. That's really the concern. The concern and what we do is, again, we ensure that we offer strong bilingual education. We have, you know, great French programs that make it such that if anybody wants to stay in Quebec, they can. They can do their post-secondary studies in Quebec and work in French and be very successful. The government has to do its part, however, in ensuring that English-speaking Quebecers feel welcome and feel included in Quebec society. When the government talks about Quebec in general, that's not always the case, depending on which government is there, but we certainly want to make sure that getting an English education in an English school with a strong French program doesn't limit any opportunities and, in fact, opens as many doors as possible.

Chris Colley: 7:15

Absolutely, and we've kind of been seeing in the news as of late some of that struggle, right that's coming in and kind of the over. I read somewhere where this new Bill 96, and correct me if I'm wrong is kind of this extra blanket over Bill 101 that came out in the 70s, right, like there's this more reinforcement almost of this protecting, and I understand that and I appreciate that the anglophone community, I'm saying, in a difficult position at times when it seems like it's one way that the government's trying to with their laws and their amendments and stuff. Could you kind of walk us through a little bit of Bill 96, which, from what I know, is now a law that's being contested? Can you like walk us through baby steps through that, so that our listeners kind of get a better idea, um, and more versed a little bit in the repercussions of such, um, you know, a bill?

Joe Ortona: 8:25

Yeah, so there's, there's a lot in bill 96. It'd be really difficult to cover it in a couple of sentences, but essentially, you know, bill 96 doesn't actually do anything to protect or promote the French language and that's really the main objection we've had about it from day one. It should be what everybody objects to because, uh, when we talk about what the main objective? To dissuade people from using English, to punish people, to bar them from, you know, being able to go to English CGEP, and that's really where we take exception. Bill 96 requires English school boards, for example, to have to communicate um in French, including internally, when we're writing, you know sending emails to each other, uh, elected officials to elected officials, or administrators to uh, uh to to their staff. I mean that that's, I mean anybody I speak to. When I mentioned that just tells me that that's absurd.

Joe Ortona: 9:56

Of course there's stricter requirements in order to get into English CEGEP. There's they've added three core French classes for students in English CEGEPS. They've set up enrollment caps for English CEGEPS so that, you know, basically is limiting educational pathways and choices that students have. So there's all of those things in which we take exception and, of course, something that we've been saying for years on bill 96 and bill 21 and bill 40, which is, you know, english school boards are constitutionally protected that the government cannot tell us, uh, how we operate, they cannot tell us how to manage, uh and control our school system and, um, tell us the language that we're supposed to communicate in, when, specifically, language is the number one thing that is protected for a minority language school board. You know, then the government leaves us very little choice but to have to go to court to assert our rights, which is essentially what we did.

Chris Colley: 11:14

Right, and you mentioning that too, like I know that the French system turned into Centre de Service a couple of years ago and we're still recognized as school boards on the English in the English system of education. Where is that at right now? Is that still in court? And and and going through you know, the cogs of of legal um processes and like what's the hope of that? Like what's the hope of will we be able to maintain english school boards? And, and you know, avoid this, the shifting where the government seems to be much more in control of who is going to be in those schools, running them, as opposed to the community bringing, you know, electing the people that they want to see in those school boards.

Joe Ortona: 12:01

So so there's a there. There's two parts to that answer. Um, you know where where we are, um, legally uh, and and. Um, legally uh, and and. And. Then where where we are in practice. So, legally, we're in a very good place.

Joe Ortona: 12:23

As soon as the government passed bill 40, which was their bill to abolish school boards, and essentially did abolish all of the uh school boards on the French side and replaced them with a very undemocratic and bureaucratic school service center model, we were able to go to court and we successfully obtained a stay, which is like an injunction. It essentially means that the application of the law is suspended, and it was suspended for English language school boards. That was the case since 2020. And the government appealed that stay and the court of appeal upheld the stay. And that's really remarkable because stays are very difficult to obtain. The threshold is very high. You have to demonstrate that you would suffer, and you have to prove it that you would suffer, as a community, an irreparable harm from the bill coming into effect and that that harm is immediate and virtually irreversible. And we were able to meet that threshold, which is already rare in and of itself, but many times when stays like that are granted, they're usually overturned on appeal. And the reason why I say that is because there is a general principle that governments pass laws to meet certain objectives. There are, they have, they get to set their own priorities and there's always that presumption that when the government does pass a bill that it is constitutional, so the onus is on the person who's contesting. The fact that we were able to get the stay maintained on appeal is something that has happened only a handful of times in all of Canadian history. So that gives you an idea how extremely rare getting a stay and having it upheld on appeal is.

Joe Ortona: 14:23

And then we got the judgment on the merits a few years later, which again the government appealed and which the government lost on appeal. So they lost four times in a row on Bill 40. Now they've asked the Supreme Court of Canada for permission to appeal. We have not yet heard if the Supreme Court will allow the appeal to happen. They may, they may not, obviously. If they don't, then that will be the end of the legal avenues and we're going to be able to continue to operate as school boards in theory. In practice regard, even if the courts side with us. You know we always have to make sure that we remain vigilant and that the government will always try to claw back powers and try to impose their will. And we have to make sure that we remain vigilant and we have to be diligent and make sure that when they do try to claw back, that we push back and that we preserve the rights that are constitutionally guaranteed to us.

Chris Colley: 15:29

Right and do you see a future where these ongoing battles might eventually be settled? And like, I guess my question is what would be an ideal future for Anglo education If these, you know, all these bills get settled? And like, what's the vision that you hope to see down the road for Anglo service? English educational services?

Joe Ortona: 16:00

Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, the the only thing that we could hope for and what we should be striving for is, uh, for the government of quebec who you know, whichever party it is that's in power uh, but that the government of quebec finally gets it and understands that, when it comes to minority language public education, that they do not have the exclusive authority to be able to just impose whatever it is they want, you know, without any, without any limitations. Everybody remembers their history class and remembers the division of powers at the time of Confederation, and section 22, sorry, section 92 included education and it being of exclusive provincial jurisdiction. However, we now, since then, have a Canadian Charter of Rights and freedoms. We've had it since 1982.

Joe Ortona: 17:03

And, essentially what section 23 does is, um, most of them, you know, french language education, private education, cgeps. But when it comes to English language public education, there's a shared jurisdiction between the province and the English-speaking community, and what that means is that the government of Quebec gets to decide some things, the English-speaking community gets to decide some things, especially when it comes to things that touch upon language and culture, and there's a shared jurisdiction, and so the government has to recognize that we are a partner when it comes to public education. I mean, that's the ideal, and as long as the government doesn't get that, it's unfortunate. But we're going to find ourselves in court more often than not, and when the government doesn't respect the decisions that are decided by Quebec judges, then we have no choice but to do what we did in the latest court challenge on the budget cuts, which is to say, the courts have already decided this and the government is disregarding the law and the constitution, and now we're seeking punitive damages.

Chris Colley: 18:29

Wow, wow, yeah, I mean I was going to talk about that too. Those challenges of I mean, what is it $570 million cut in education? I mean, what is it A $570 million cut in education? I mean it seems like and I'm starting to see the ground, you know, on the ground level of you know no opportunities for professional development, you know less teachers Like, the repercussions are going to be felt big time, particularly for us who are consultants and we do workshops and support teachers and kids in their learning. It puts us in a very difficult position to how do we offer these services that we have for our community? What is the hope of this lawsuit against this massive that that we're going to experience this year?

Joe Ortona: 19:21

Well, the, the I mean the hope of the lawsuit if I can sum it up in one sentence is is to stop these cuts from actually occurring.

Joe Ortona: 19:28

That's one of the things we're seeking.

Joe Ortona: 19:30

We're seeking a stay now on, uh, on the budgetary measures that the government wants to impose on us.

Joe Ortona: 19:38

So you know they want us to meet certain caps when it comes to employees and you know they want to bar us from being able to use our accumulated surplus, which is money that we've saved over the years through, you know, fiscal, fiscally responsible management and control, um and and.

Joe Ortona: 20:06

So what we're saying is you can't do this, and that's why we're going to court, because, everybody understands, uh, from the elected school commissioners to all of the staff, all of the pedagogues and the parents. We all understand that if we had to meet the targets that the government was asking to meet and and cutting what they were asking us to cut, and adopt a greatly reduced budget, we would have to slash services that would have a detrimental impact on the quality of education that the children receive, and a lot of services would be greatly reduced and some would be eliminated. So it's very, very concerning. You know, all of this will most likely be decided within the next month, because the courts understand that we do have to adopt the budget very soon. So they're going to make every effort to ensure that that's heard and decided very quickly.

Chris Colley: 21:12

Interesting. What can we do as an Anglophone community to support one another more on these kind of I don't want to say infringement, but it rights as Anglo citizens in Quebec and the rights that we have from the Charter?

Joe Ortona: 21:27

Yeah, Well, I know, with the number of pending court cases that we have, it's easy to get the impression that we're running to the courts. That's not the case. You know, we go to court as a last resort and oftentimes we find ourselves in a situation where, when we actually push back and we tell the government, you know we are not going to do this, and we tell the government, you know we are not going to do this that they actually don't react at all. And so the message that I always keep reminding my colleagues is they know we have these rights. They're counting on us either feeling intimidated from asserting our rights or they're counting on us not understanding our rights or necessarily when they apply. So we shouldn't feel afraid to push back when we know that we're right and when we know that we're exercising our rights and powers that we have and powers that we have.

Joe Ortona: 22:57

So you know everybody in the English speaking community, whether you're your parents of children currently in the system, or your children went through the system, or or you're you're now grandparents of children in the system, or if you don't yet have children in the system and you're part of the just larger English speaking community, I feel everybody has a responsibility to be involved.

Joe Ortona: 23:23

You know the schools are community hubs that belong to us. Everybody should be involved, understand what exactly is happening in education, because the decisions that are made that affect our schools, that affect our, you know, our programs of instruction are decisions that affect you today and if they don't affect you today, they could affect you 10 years from now. So it's really important for everybody to be informed and to be involved and to understand exactly what our Section 23 rights are, how broadly they are to be applied, when they apply and when they don't, and be ready to. Sometimes, when the government wants to let us know what they want us to do, we have to let them know what we're allowed to do and let them know that we're exercising those rights. And more often than not the government backs off without requiring us to go to court. So those are the wins that are much less costly but that happen much more often. But don't get talked about as much.

Chris Colley: 24:38

Yeah, totally, joe. I just want to thank you so much for coming on here and making us all smarter about. You know, our lovely community, I mean it's a close-knit community, it's a strong community. It has a voice and we have to just keep using it right, like as you said, like if we don't keep talking about it and pushing a little bit, they'll kindly take it, you know, like it's something that you have to voice and battle for a little bit. So I really appreciate this knowledge that you shared with us about how all of this is connected together. Really, I mean, it's all this web that's connected and it's starting to make a lot more sense to me, anyway, thanks to you. So thanks so much, joe. I appreciate it.

Joe Ortona: 25:29

Always happy to help and answer any questions, and thanks for having me on again. This was a lot of fun and I'd be happy to come back anytime.

Chris Colley: 25:38

Amazing. I will definitely reach back out to you, Joe, when, uh, some wild things continue.

Joe Ortona: 25:45

You take care and have a great school year. Thanks you too. Thank you.