Speaker 1: 0:12

all right, here we are another episode of shift ed podcast. I'm coming uh to you guys uh out of uh quebec today and I'm really excited about this podcast. I've been thinking about it a lot and I have two amazing educators here and we're going to talk about ELA in Quebec. In our Anglo communities, there is a summer literacy symposium that was just put together. It happened this past summer and that's really going to be our focus, kind of what informed that symposium that was just put together. It happened this past summer and that's really going to be our focus, kind of what informed that symposium and what happened, what people thought and what the next steps are. So I have Kathleen Murray and I have Melinda Clifford coming in with us. So thanks so much, guys, for hopping on here and sharing your stories behind this pretty amazing PD that's happening.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us, Chris.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Really good to see you Well, kathleen. We've crossed paths many a times. It's always a pleasure. Melinda, it's great that we've made these connections as well. Before we jump into all of that stuff, kathleen, where did it all start? For you education, why do you love it?

Speaker 2: 1:37

so much and give us a little Cole's notes on Kathleen's educational journey. Wow, I love that question. It starts with the kids and and especially the little ones. That's where it started for me, and I've always gone into the classroom saying I want them to be good, kind, contributing citizens of society. That's the number one. We're going to learn how to read, we're going to learn math, we're going to do all those things. It's super important, but we're all going to go off in our own different ways. What matters most is are you? Are you going to know how to contribute and be giving and selfless and kind? And that's that's the heart of education. It's the community. Oh, I love that question.

Speaker 1: 2:14

We could stop this podcast right now. Boom, perfect, amazing. Thanks Kathleen for that. Like I feel that too. Like, well said, well said. What about you? Where did your?

Speaker 3: 2:31

educational journey begin. My educational journey began on the other side of the world, halfway around the world, from here in Sydney, Australia, which is where I started my degree in education and then ended up moving here and finishing my degree at Bishops. So I did all my stages and started my career in secondary education here and again, same as Kathleen and I think it's the same for teachers across the province Teachers do it for the kids. So I've been very lucky in my career to have had wonderful students all the way from Sec 1 through to Sec 5.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Amazing. Well, thanks for that. It is All this is about the kids, right, the lens we look through continuously. Is this going to benefit our kids and increase their chance of success in this crazy world that we live in? Chance of success in this crazy world that we live in? So, as we kind of like, focus in on our conversation again, great to have you guys here. There's this myth and I'd like to debunk it a little bit. We have a dual language here in Quebec. I mean, french is definitely the main language here in Quebec. I mean French is definitely the main language here in Quebec, and I always had this assumption that our programs were just mirrors of one another. However, there's a nuance, I think, between our English program of language instruction and our French program of instruction that they're not. They're not um, similar or they're a little bit different. Um, is that? Is that a myth, or is that something that exists? Maybe? Uh, melinda, I'll throw that to you sure I can take this one.

Speaker 3: 4:19

so, even though they were created at the same time, uh, french language of instruction was created as the language of instruction curriculum for the francophone sector, whereas ELE English Language Arts is a little bit different. It's a literacy-based program, so it's not termed English Language of Instruction. It's really English Language arts. So, while they were conceived around the same time, english language arts was conceived as a literacy-based program with a focus on learning the language, so learning the word and learning the word in order to learn the world around us. So it's really. This idea of language is our in to the rest of the world, so it allows us to verbalize our ideas, our beliefs, our culture. All of that happens through language. So I think the philosophy of the program at its conception was a little bit different and it was created really for the, the english anglophone network cool, cool.

Speaker 1: 5:30

So there are there are um differences in in in the anglo programs it was very avant-garde at the time.

Speaker 3: 5:37

So the elementary curriculum was published in 2001 and it was really focused on the constructivist view of learning. There was a lot of focus on metacognition, which was really avant-garde at the time. There were help me out here, kathleen.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Well, I love how our program embeds portfolios, which was a really important shift in the reform and unfortunately didn't hold as much as we would have liked it to. But in terms of children really being involved in reflecting on what they choose to put in their portfolios and how they reflect on why that's there, because they're progressing, because they're proud of it, because they're able to identify what they've achieved you know what they've learned and then they can identify their goals and where they're going next. That philosophy is still tried and true. That is still, we know, incredibly effective.

Speaker 3: 6:39

I think there was a realization at the time too that all of the competencies in the program are really equal. So we're looking at reading and writing and oral communication or talk, talk to learn, as it's in the program, and they play out sort of like on a 33, 33, 34 level in the framework for the evaluation of learning. So there was a recognition even over 20 years ago that talk was just as important as reading and writing, and I think just that is avant-garde for more than 20 years ago.

Speaker 1: 7:17

Absolutely yeah, and and, and, basing it on the constructivist model as well. I mean, that's pretty cool, pretty cool. So we, you guys, came together right Kathleen, you're on a loan right now right To the ministry and what was, what's your main kind of crux of this loan of service that you're on right now?

Speaker 2: 7:46

Gosh. I mean it was such an exciting opportunity to get to come and work up at the ministry, knowing that we had just finished a project that I was welcomed in on for Oracy, the Oracy Toolkit. So, again, that focus on talk and how Melinda uses the term, the expression help me with the quote reading and writing float on a sea of talk. And so that was the project that I was invited in on, first as a consultant and from there, knowing that we were going to move into looking at what are the foundational skills for learning how to read those pieces that teachers talk a lot about and want to know more about and that aren't currently explicitly present in our program. We know, in order to get to the skills, the literacy skills that we want kids to have, that we need that there, but it's not explicitly in that, and so we knew that we were going to be looking at that, and to me that was just incredibly exciting. What could be more important, right?

Speaker 1: 8:53

So it's been a fun couple of years collaborating, kind of looking at it as well, which I found pretty interesting. What was the seed that started it all? I know that there was a research that came out around reading in our schools that the Language Network had worked on. Was that something of a seed that kind of started this idea that we would start doing a PD that would have a life to it, meaning that it would have many years that it would be over this professional development that you guys have been working on?

Speaker 3: 9:42

well, certainly, certainly, the summer literacy symposium grew from that work. So, if I can backtrack a little bit, back in 2022, the Dean Languages Network reached out to our team, so the ELA programs team at the Ministry of Education, to collaborate on a project that would look at how reading translates from the curriculum into practice and into the classroom. And so we collaborated with the ELE consultants from across the province, including Katavik and Littoral, as well as the private sector, and there were just over maybe 12 of us. So we worked in three subcommittees. And one subcommittee looked at curricula from Canada, so we looked at curricula from across the country, as well as some international ELA curricula. We looked at New Zealand and Australia.

Speaker 3: 10:42

And another subcommittee was well, it was essentially the survey subcommittee, so they surveyed teachers from across the province, elementary teachers as well as university professors, to gather information on how reading was being taught across the province. And the third subcommittee looked at the research. So what research had come out in the past 20 years since the program was originally published on reading instruction? Uh, and that culminated in the research into reading report which the dean languages network published last may, if I'm not mistaken, um, which was shared with us and with our director and the suminist I'm looking for suminist in French.

Speaker 1: 11:37

With the suminist, suminist.

Speaker 2: 11:38

Yeah, you're looking for it in English, but we don't know Suminist.

Speaker 1: 11:43

We understand.

Speaker 3: 11:45

So, and there were recommendations in that report that focused on two things, so essentially what the Dean Languages Network recommended better teacher reading in the classroom and so the symposium was something that we could move forward with through Entente Canada, quebec, and we were inspired for the most part by the Summer Math Institute that's been running for the last 10 years or so through LCEQ, which is the Leadership Committee for English Education in Quebec, and they've been working on the Summer Math Institute.

Speaker 3: 12:22

It's a model of a residential model where teachers go away for three days in the summer and they really focus on some skills that they can take back and implement following the summer straight away in September, and so we decided that we would try and follow this model because it was so successful. So we based our proposition on that and we reached out to LCEQ to see if they would be interested in collaborating with us to bring the project to fruition, and they're wonderful. I have only good things to say about LCEQ, and the rest is history, and last year was our first summer literacy symposium, and we've got a fabulous steering committee that we worked with for a year to put everything together, and we were able to reach out to some fabulous researchers from across the country who presented last August. And that's it. That's how it came about.

Speaker 1: 13:23

Yeah, that's amazing. And Kathleen tell us a little bit about, like, who are some of the keynotes and like people that you had come in to kind of, you know, work with you guys and during this first symposium.

Speaker 2: 13:38

So, honestly, it's really a dream come true, Like this is something you know Melinda already alluded to it. It's a conversation that had been happening at the Language at Table for a while. How can we English language arts consultants put together something like what the math consultants have? So to watch this happen is amazing. And I said, well, who, who are we going to get involved?

Speaker 2: 14:00

And as a teacher, I would receive stagiaire from Dr Sandra Martin Chang from Concordia Education Department and I'd only heard amazing things about her and we knew we had to go and get her. And we found her and she was on board and so it started with her and then from there reached out to Jean Ouellette, who works out in New Brunswick at Mount Allison, and then we also reached out to Dr Helene Deacon, who's at Dalhousie in Nova Scotia. So we're really looking at. We've got East Coast and professors who have had a huge impact already on curricula. Gene's role is vocabulary and he participated in New Brunswick updating of their curriculum, so we've got someone who really knows their stuff. Helen Deacon is Dr. Helen Deacon is the, the morphology person, and we can get into how exciting morphology is later on in this podcast it could be a whole podcast unto itself.

Speaker 2: 15:06

So that was our core, our core experts that we brought in, not to mention, of course, the amazing consultants that we're working with throughout the province, from all the boards, but that was year one.

Speaker 1: 15:25

Quite a few participants too. This first kick at the can right. I mean I saw the big picture on LCEQ and the write-ups and I mean it looks like it was a fabulous experience that everybody's. You know, we're, we're glowing, it seemed from the photo. Um, I imagine I was taken at the end or was that more?

Speaker 2: 15:39

Yeah, and people were enthusiastic. We need a picture before we go. And yeah, you see the joy in that photo there was. There was a lot of excitement as people headed off.

Speaker 1: 15:49

It was palpable, yeah, great. So, linda, you were saying that there were three aspects that that research had looked into. Was there one in particular that you guys wanted to address with this symposium this year? And let me get the title of it Teacher knowledge. You're the best resource in your class, right? So that was your theme that you guys had. Was that based on? Did that? Did the research inform that theme and what does that mean? That that title, like, could you dive a little bit deeper into what? What are behind, what's behind that theme?

Speaker 3: 16:35

that theme Sure. Well, we truly believe that teachers play such a critical role in student learning, and the more knowledge teachers have, the better they're able to teach, and we found that out through the survey that we did in the Research into reading project, too, is that teachers really wanted to focus on the. What's the word that I'm looking for?

Speaker 2: 16:57

Well, the mechanics right, the foundational, the pillars right, Foundational skills of reading.

Speaker 3: 17:04

We wanted to empower educators to with the tools and the confidence that they need to be better teachers, better teachers of reading in the classroom.

Speaker 1: 17:14

Interesting. And what is the difference? Because I ran across these two terms and we sometimes get hung up in education with terminology. But there was foundational literacy skills and then there's the five pillars of reading. Are those connected? Is there a thorough line between those two? Like I mean foundational literacy skills, you have metacognitive self-efficacy, word recognition, etc. The pillars of reading you have phonics, fluency, vocabulary comprehension. Could you guys paint a picture of how those can work together or are they kind of uh, do they smash into one another?

Speaker 2: 18:05

well, I think it's a good opportunity to talk about the active view of reading um, because there's so much research out there, there's so much work that's been done and there's so much language around it. And you're right, people can get hung up on.

Speaker 1: 18:17

You know the words that we use the flavor of the week.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Yeah, but what we, what we did is we looked at what Nell Duke and Kelly Cartwright came out with the active view and it just beautifully marries all of it into something that we can really visualize in a concrete fashion.

Speaker 2: 18:34

And we thought, if we use this as our framework for the three years, then that's a really great compass, right, a great way to really and part of what we really wanted to be careful about.

Speaker 2: 18:47

We know, we know they need the phonics, they need all that really core basic, the decoding skills. We need those decoding skills, but not at the cost of comprehension, right, it still all happens together simultaneously and we didn't want anyone to lose sight of that. So we thought, knowing that we're going to go into year one and we are going to look at those pieces, those really what are the first steps of learning how to read, but it's never at the cost of comprehension. But you know what? We're not going to zoom in on that in year one and we don't want anyone to think that that we're, that we're neglecting that. Right, there's still a whole picture of the reader and the active view just does such a beautiful job of showing where the metacognition and the self-efficacy and the language skills and the comprehension and the fluency and it all comes in together as the outcome of a reader you are reading.

Speaker 1: 19:35

When you get through all of that, um interesting, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, I came across the active view of reading and I was curious, like it, it seems, and in the end, you guys used that research for a lot of what you were going to deliver during the symposium.

Speaker 3: 19:55

Yeah, it's the theoretical model really that underpins the learning that's happening at the symposium and really what it does, I mean it just sort of it builds on the simple view of reading and then we had Scarborough's Rope and then now we have the Active View of Reading and we really liked the Active View because it's got that active self-regulation piece which is already present in a lot of the program that we have. Like, we find that piece on metacognition and engagement and motivation and I think that's always been a part of our program. But the word recognition that Kathleen was talking about before is something that we really need to be more explicit about. So we felt that that was a good model to help us and it really sort of outlines those bridging processes too and it's not terribly different from the five pillars that came out of the national panel, I think.

Speaker 3: 20:51

I mean you've got fluency in there as part of the bridging. It bridges the, the word recognition and the comprehension, um. So that's where the fluency sits and the morphology and that kind of thing. So we've used that model to really structure the learning that's happening throughout the symposium over the three years amazing and walk us through um a day throughout the symposium over the three years.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Amazing, and walk us through a day at the symposium. Like, what kind of workshops would I run into? What kind of breakout sessions might I see? Like what, how did you guys assemble all this? Like I'm sure it was a puzzle, but like what, what would somebody experience going into the Summer Literacy Symposium?

Speaker 3: 21:34

I'm going to allow Kathleen to fill this one, but I would be remiss not to thank our steering committee and all of the work, because Kathleen and I did not do this alone. There were, you know, a number of us working on putting the pieces of the puzzle together, so you can speak to that if you like.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Yeah, no, I'm so glad you're mentioning that because, 100%, we were building the plane while flying it right For year one, because it is so complex and there's so much that we want teachers to know and what is the most important things, for the first three and a half days out of the three years right In total. So that was really tricky and lots of back and forth, but that's the beauty. I have to also um underline the fact that the steering committee is built up of the consultants from across the province, right, so we made sure that we've had perspectives that are coming in um from all corners, which I think is really important, great collaboration, right like.

Speaker 1: 22:33

It seems like this whole intent, too, was like really to get people talking to each other and building relationships and sharing experiences, and like I mean there's the magic right there. Right Like, regardless of what breakouts or workshops offered, right Like just having all those, that, those brains, together, in over a 3D period.

Speaker 2: 22:56

And that, and that's why it's in-house, absolutely. That's why it's in-house, absolutely. That's why it's a residency program, because you need to have teachers talking. They're talking before, they're talking after, and so a day is, it's wonderful. You wake up, you have breakfast with new people that you've just met, you get to know each other, and then you go for a session where it's going to be all grade levels together, from grades one through to seven, all in one room, learning about things that we all need to know shared knowledge, basic foundations and our different leaders, our different professionals, are going and they're zooming in on that, and then we go to our breakouts. Well, that's when we get to get something a little more tailored to our specific needs. So our groups are either grades one to three, four to five or six to seven, and doing the cross cycle was also intentional, right, so that we can really build those bridges.

Speaker 2: 23:50

A lot of it was about bridge building, but also recognizing that in our particular landscape of how we learn to read, we have such a wide spectrum of whether it's Anglophones learning to first read in French and then they first get English language arts in grade three. So how do we bridge that gap? Where do we tie things together there? Or maybe they're only getting their English language arts in grade five for the first time, or then maybe we've got some Francophone children who are learning to read in English first. So just the plethora of that, right? So it's one of the reasons we did this crossing over, to try to, like, mix people up to share their experiences. Um, some cross pollination, right. So? So that's it. So the breakouts zoom in on whatever it was that we all received in large group, um, and and so on and so forth. That's pretty much the.

Speaker 1: 24:43

The wheel turns like that throughout the day right, right, and so the initial kind of all together and then you kind of like zoom down into something more specific that touches whoever wants to go into that breakout yeah, yeah, well, hopefully something practical.

Speaker 2: 24:59

Practical that then they know how do I apply this in my grade six classroom, or how do I apply this in my grade two classroom, so they get it tailored a little bit more to their needs.

Speaker 1: 25:07

Amazing, that's cool. That sounds like a finely tuned machine as you're flying the plane.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Well, and so, if I may, if I may, you know, maybe I'm jumping ahead ahead, but we got lots of feedback on that and we did our absolute best in year one to try to get those breakouts just right, but we know that teachers wanted even more time for talking, even more time for collaboration. You know what we felt to two like. You know what we tried to pack in a lot in year one. It might have been. We thought we did less is more, but I think we were still biting off an awful lot. So we went back to the drawing board and have tweaked things in such a way that there's going to be even more of that time for collaboration and we've pulled back on a few things and we've nipped here and nipped there to try to make it even more. Basically, we know our 1.0, it was a success and we're really proud. But we're super excited about 2.0. And we're grateful to all the participants who said we'll show up, we'll be your guinea pigs, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 26:10

We're so grateful to them so many participants, like in the summer too, right, you'd think, oh, everybody's on vacation, their minds are off school, but they're like no, no, kids value, they're important. I mean, it's really quite. I wanted to ask you, too, what were your most surprises about this whole experience. What are some of the things that really stuck out to you as wow, I never imagined this would happen, or that were unexpected, that just happen when you bring a bunch of people together that have a shared passion so we've got some wonderful surprises and I think we can let people in on our surprises.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Yeah, absolutely go for it, yeah, so, um, we have adrian here, who's an educator in bc and a lot of our teachers are familiar with her. She's presented online to a couple of the school boards in the province already. She'll be coming in in person and presenting the keynote and she'll be doing a little bit of uh, powerful thinking and that that critical thinking piece with teachers. We'll be welcoming Karen Filowich. She's a practitioner from Alberta. She was an elementary school teacher. She was a principal and a consultant. She's now an author and the wonderful thing is, too that we're bringing her in in the winter.

Speaker 3: 27:36

Winter she'll be presenting online to principals, because part of what we want to do is, in order to make this work, I think we've got to go outside the classroom too and ensure that principals in the schools are helping support their teachers. So principals need to know what PD their teachers are getting so that they can support them in the classroom. So we're offering that this winter. We have Dr Larry Swartz, who is from Ontario. He'll be coming in next year as well, and we'll be thankfully welcoming back Dr Sandra Martin-Chang, dr Jean Ouellette and Dr Helen Deacon from last year as well, and on top of that we've got some wonderful consultants who will be running the breakouts as well.

Speaker 1: 28:25

So we're building capacity. We've got the best consultants in. Quebec, you know, hands down the best. I mean, you can't find a better group of people. So the symposium happens in the summer summer, and you kind of alluded to some winter stuff. How do you keep that continuum going so that what they've, what they've captured in in the summer, feeds their practice? But you're still, they still feel like they're, they're supported as they're going through, maybe shifting practice or tweaking certain things. What's the continuum with this initiative?

Speaker 2: 29:06

I'm glad you're asking that because it speaks to the structure and the intent, the proposal of the project in and of itself. Right, because the idea is build capacity and we know we're not going to get every single teacher coming up in the summer. It's not possible, right, it won't be feasible. So, on top of getting the teachers as participants, we also make sure that we're getting the consultants in and the ones we didn't catch in the first year just because of limitations of numbers, they're coming up by year two and if we've got any new ones or anybody else, there's a year three. So they participate as participants, right? So the only thing that they end up leading and this is answering your question in sort of roundabout way, what they end up leading is on the last day before everybody goes home, they do a reflection session with their people, with their school boards and, for the really smaller boards, well, they get together and they support one another as well to make sure that networking is happening and that support. So it's the building of capacity, so that the consultants are matched with their teachers and then they know that we're still there to support them. They can reach out to us and there is an expectation of you know, touch base with your teachers, see what questions they have.

Speaker 2: 30:23

You know they were all handed a reflection journal right off the bat and it was referenced throughout the entire symposium and it will be continued to be used as their tool of where am I, where am I headed, where have I arrived, where was I Right? Just, I don't have to tell you what a reflective journal is, but I mean it's really fun and really exciting. So everybody's on board. It's the collaboration piece and we just keep checking in with one another. We get to speak with the language network to see how, and so we follow up with them, they follow up with us to see how, so we follow up with them, they follow up with us. Um, so it's. It really is on a, on a continue continual um cycle.

Speaker 1: 31:04

If you will, yeah right, well, this airplane looks like it's going to be, um, a supersonic airplane eventually, um, with all the bells and whistles attached to it. Um, how would somebody that hears this get involved if? If they're like teaching, you know, and they're like, hey, that sounds like something that I would like to be involved in. What, what, what's the process for for new cohorts?

Speaker 3: 31:31

the first thing would be to reach directly out to your consultant, your ela consultant, at your school board, and let them know that you're interested.

Speaker 1: 31:40

It's as simple as that.

Speaker 3: 31:44

I mean there's a certain number of spots that are allotted. So I would say, if you're interested contact your consultant, the sooner the better indeed.

Speaker 2: 31:55

Yeah, it's probably worth saying Registration is already underway. Most people talking to their consultants right now would wind up on a wait list, but there might be a few spots still available for some school boards, so it's worth checking. And if you don't make this year. Well, like we said, there's going to be a third cohort, so get your name on the list now for next year.

Speaker 1: 32:17

Cool, well, and it's a great way to kind of, if you've never talked with your ELA consultant, to reach out and say, hey, all right, well, that might not be available this year, but so what else are you up to like? Start those conversations, um, because we're all in this together. Right, it's a it's, it's.

Speaker 1: 32:33

It is a big, happy family and we all want the best for our children and I think that some of these things, these initiatives that we, that we organize, particularly these ones that last over time, right, so the teacher knows that this supports there and that this is a growth and that it's going to require, uh, reflection and and and change a little bit.

Speaker 2: 32:54

Um, yeah, kathleen well, and that's the idea, right, chris, is that is that it's over. So we're building something and it's really exciting and, like I said, now we've got our two point and we're coming out and it's only going to get better. And the consultants are part of the process, and so for the teachers who say you know, I can't make it in the summer, that's okay, because your consultants are learning what to do and they're going to be putting things together bit by bit, one thing at a time. We all just get stronger and better together, so it's never going to be too late right to get on the bus, so it's exciting.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Get on the bus, get on the plane, just do it. Your kids deserve it, Our province deserves it, we all deserve it. Anyway, this has been really, really a great chat, guys. Thanks so much too. Like I feel like these kinds of conversations where we're talking about you know she knew it's they're important to have and it's good to get our voices out there where we can share these really cool innovative projects that are going on and the intent behind and it seems to be super well-informed as well, and I'm excited for you guys. I'd love to have a chat after the three years to kind of maybe a synopsis or a reflective review of, and then the next steps, Because, like you said, it never ends so thanks so much guys for hopping on here and sharing your projects and your ideas and your thoughts Super entertaining and I hope to talk to you guys again soon.

Speaker 2: 34:25

Well, thank you for reaching out for the invitation and giving us that opportunity. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 34:30

Awesome, thank you.