Speaker 1: 0:14

Okay, welcome back to another episode of Shifted Ed podcast Coming out of Montreal. Today a bit of a chilly nip in the air, but I have Dean Shersky who is going to warm our souls up with some educational thoughts and kind of look into the future a little bit of education as these shifting times keep evolving. Dean is a speaker, an author, an avid podcaster as well. He has a great podcast out there, the Canadian Ed Leadership Show Also, if you want to go back in time a bit, outside the Classroom podcast as well, and I like his motto learning stuff since 1964. Dean, tell us about what your big learning moments have been since 1964 to kind of establish yourself a little bit and kind of tell us, tell the audience, what your journey's been so far as you might guess, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:24

I think the thing is, you know, it's interesting when you talk to educators in terms of how they got to where they got, there's a lot of us who never dreamed that education was for us. Now there's other people, great educators, who you know that's part of their heritage, right, mom and dad was a teacher or principal or you know, and so they've continued that because they, you know, and I think I think there's something beautiful about the fact of watching your parents do something and saying I want to do that too. I think that's a really, that's a really wonderful testament to them and to to your family, I guess. But that wasn't the case for me. I, I, my parents were, in fact, my dad's still alive. He's 92. He's got a grade eight education, um so and you know, it just wasn't something in my wheelhouse, what?

Speaker 2: 2:12

What was in my wheelhouse, though, as a young person, was I really loved kids, like I was the teenager who was, uh, you know, always we'd go to parties or whatever, and I would like just love hanging out with little ones. They were just funny, and maybe it reflected my own lack of maturity, I don't know. And even when I got married at a pretty early age, kind of discovered that that was what I really loved to do. And then, you know, at that time, even thinking about, like, the job market and and you know I had a lot of aspirations, I was actually thinking about journalism at one point in my career, which is kind of interesting cause I still do a lot of writing, so that that never really left me that desire, but it really was thinking about. Well, you know, there aren't very many young men in men in general in elementary education, particularly in the primary grades, and that was really what I was interested in and so that was, I mean, part of it. And so anyway, through a lot of different circumstances, decided that would be where I would start my journey.

Speaker 2: 3:20

And so, yeah, my first 14 years in education was a classroom teacher, teaching. You know, I taught everything from kind of K to eight, but most of it was in that primary grades one and two area and I just like I loved it. It was just they, they just are, you know, just such a gift every day. I the mistake I made was I didn't write down all the things they said, like every day I'd come home and it was like you can't even believe what this kid said. It's just amazing. I have grandkids now and now I'm I sort of I'm reflecting on the fact like I should have been more attentive to writing all the stuff down, cause there's so much good stuff, but that that's. I mean, that's where it started.

Speaker 1: 4:05

I don't on from there, but that was the start of it. Well, and kind of a question about that is play seems to be so important in those younger years, right, like four, five-year-olds I mean it's how they start to develop. I mean I push it all the way up until you know eight, nine years old what happens in our schools when play is not understood, like what the idea is. And it kind of connects a little bit to your book where you were talking about the joy, bringing joy and creating a culture of joy, and I think play connects to that a lot. What do you think the misunderstandings are that we have about play?

Speaker 2: 4:38

Well, I think, you know, there's always the there's a sense of urgency and there's obviously a number of factors, but I think about, I think about number one, schools, and this is particularly, even more emphasized in the US, but it's in Canada too, that school's role of you know, preparing kids for the workforce, and so that the urgency around that begins to shift farther and farther down towards those early years. And then there's always some kind of career. You know education, you know even, you know as early as grade five or six, which, again, I'm not saying anything wrong with that, but you could see where that that can lead to. So I think there's that. I think there's also just anytime you you add bureaucracy to something that's pretty natural.

Speaker 2: 5:26

So one of my favorite books is the book of learning and forgetting, which really speaks to the idea that learning is a pretty natural thing. Like if, if we go back 300 years when there was no public education, people weren't stupid, people learned right. They learned by the company they kept, they learned by, you know, mentoring, they learned through all this, very, very some of the very similar ways in which we see learning happen now. So I think we get away from the fact that it's actually kind of a natural thing and I mean there's so much research right now and has been around the role of play and maybe this also goes back to me, you know, being somewhat having always had that child. Like you know, I like that's how I like to learn, I like to horse around with stuff and play and make mistakes and and and sort of alleviate some of the, the seriousness that gets laden upon learning that everything is this big urgent thing, like just chill, like like this is a wonderful time in our lives to find out that, oh, that was, that was dumb, I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 2: 6:30

Or or, wow, I've learned something. I really like this, all of those kinds of opportunities. So it it. I think there's just a lot of things that change, like. I think it's it's, but a lot of it is just adding layers of bureaucracy and people feel the need to structure things in order to make them feel good about whatever.

Speaker 1: 6:45

Whatever their job doing, whether that's ministries of education, district leadership, classroom teachers, parents we all do it, um, sometimes with good intention, but I think we can see where maybe it's gone, you know, in a, in a direction that maybe it shouldn't yeah, I hear you on that, like here in quebec, anyway, our preschool program has shifted back to a heavy play base, you know, where they want kids to have free play for like two hours a day, which again is, I think, amazing because, as you said, it's a natural process to discover yourself as a learner. It takes time and experiences and opportunities that you lay forth for them, but it'll just happen.

Speaker 1: 7:28

Like exactly what you said, like there's, we don't necessarily you know, don't teach a bird how to sing, it just singing.

Speaker 2: 7:37

But then there's always. Then there's, at some point, there's the weird cutoff, right. So we decide, oh, this is good for kindergartens. And that was a realization that I had. So my first year in teaching first grade, you know, and I was, you know, just like a lot of teachers. I was just trying to survive and hang on and did what I was thought was right, which was put kids in rows or whatever, like kindergarten, that's where you play.

Speaker 2: 7:56

Grade one is like let's get serious. And so I remember those first couple of years really trying to adopt to that and feeling like I was pushing kids and like this just didn't feel right. But I didn't have the, I didn't have the, the, the wherewithal to really understand, like that's. I don't think that's how this should go. And so it took me some time, and even after I'd finished my tenure tenure in that grade level I don't think I fully grasped that I needed to make this way more play-based than what I had even done. And again, at some point, right, there's almost like a harsh cutoff. So, whether that's after, I don't know, kindergarten, first grade, second, whatever it is we still sometimes think well, we push that aside, and I think that's a shame.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Yeah, totally yeah. It's almost like preschool is seen as like this, getting ready for school, kind of like environment, and then once they're in grade one you know I've heard many kids say to like talking to. You know grade ones and twos, like you know about play, you know, so how's the play here in grade one? Like they just never get enough of it. You know it's never enough.

Speaker 2: 8:57

They, we, have to sit at desks and comply and and fly. And we can add to the fact that in our society today we see kids struggle with socialization and play, and it's because once they're at home, there's that much more structure, right, like they're going off to dance and hockey and everything else, which, again, those are awesome things. But you know, unlike probably you and I in our childhood, where there was just a lot more free time. And so what now is the question that I then ask is okay? So if that's true and we don't control what happens at home, but we can have some say at what happens in those times at school, maybe it's time that we increase that play in socialization, because that's not something that they're experiencing outside of school as much as they used to.

Speaker 1: 9:44

Very true, very true. And it kind of brings me to your work, where you do emphasize this importance of joy in the learning, that we have to infuse this in our everyday practices. Could you kind of expand on that a bit, dean, and give us some examples of how would you start to establish a culture of joy within your classroom?

Speaker 2: 10:06

Well, I mean number one. It starts with you as the educator. Are you having fun at what you're doing? Do you find joy in it? And so one of the things that I talk a lot about in that vein is, you know, and it's one of my favorite quotes from Gary Stager. He says one of the best things you can do for kids is to be an interesting person, and so, basically, fostering your own interest and loves and figuring out how to bring that into the classroom, so you're excited about something and I, you know the truth is I can. I can hang out with anybody, and you know, it's funny.

Speaker 2: 10:40

Some of the podcasts I listened to on topics and things that I really don't know much about, I'm not even necessarily that interested in, but I'm I'm captured by the passion of people who are right, so they can talk about woodworking and cars and things that, like, those aren't my things, but they're so passionate about, like, okay, you, you've hooked me, I'm in Right. So so I think that's where it starts is is you as a teacher? And and I think sometimes there's been a and I think sometimes there's been a misconception around what constraints and or abilities do you have to be your own person in the classroom. I think there's a lot more latitude than maybe individuals give themselves power and permission to do. I don't think there's people that are saying, well, you can't talk about your hobbies and passions outside? I think no for sure you can. So I think that's one thing, and then I think the other thing is really is to figure out a way to create this sense of community and belonging. Right, like, like goodness gracious, especially in elementary, but even in high school, right, you've got kids for X number of hours a day, and if the experience is just you as an individual going to school, and then the socialization, the community part, is just whatever you do as an individual, I don't think that's optimizing our time.

Speaker 2: 11:50

I think it happens when we're intentional about creating that sense of belonging and so then, empowering the kids to bring their own selves, their passions, their interests and again, these aren't new concepts, and people talk about personalized learning. People talk about kids being able to do that. Sure, you just have to be intentional about it and just have to say this is something that we're going to ensure that we learn with and from one another. Right, like, so it's not just about the teacher, it's, it's about how do we learn together and again, there's lots of little strategies that can happen with that, I think.

Speaker 2: 12:29

I think one of the things that's really important in that is is rituals and routine, right? So whether you start the day every day with a little game or activity, and even if it's silly and dumb and even if the kid's kind of grown, it's the same thing as when you tell a dad joke and you know your kids go, oh, like yeah, they do that. But inside it's like, yeah, that's my dad, he's just that way and I'm part of that experience. So I think having and I remember, even in high schools, like I remember going to Singapore a number of years ago and going into a classroom there where the teacher English teacher started every class with tea, so they would take 10 minutes out of their I don't know how long their class was, 75 minutes and just sit and have tea.

Speaker 2: 13:04

He'd turn the lights off, they'd sit down and I just thought, well, what an awesome ritual. These kids have been running around like crazy all day and it was usually a class in the afternoon. This was like this is just chance to chill, we'll talk and then we'll get into things. I thought like what an awesome little routine to to have as part of your classroom. So I think those are. Those are two things the idea of bringing your own self and also being intentional about building and creating community yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1: 13:31

I mean, it kind of brings me back to this relationship building, like I always see education is is that, is that we're, we're creating relationships with each other and it's a very human thing, like play is right, like all of these natural things that we just are inclined to and taking advantage of those that happen. And I was looking at one of your presentations where you talked about the classrooms of the future, about the classrooms of the future, and I found a quote from there which I thought was really interesting, where you said you can't have Bloom's stuff until you take care of the Maslow's stuff. And I thought again, get back to the basics of how we are as humans, how we develop naturally and take advantage of that. Could you expand on that quote a little bit, because I just found it really insightful.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Yeah Well, I mean, it's not my quote, I can't even tell you where it is, so I wouldn't take credit for the quote, but I will take credit for for jumping on that idea as as something that is is, I think, really a critical. I mean, it's just that we, we skip so many steps, right, we just like let's get into it, like here's the objective, so how do we get there? And it's like wait a minute, like like how do we? This kid's not ready, they're not ready to talk about this or learn about this. Cause there's and I think this is where you know the notion of classroom complexities, which is a term that's been used a lot more in the last number of years, and you see this in provincial negotiations and so forth about how do we address, and I think what we're talking about, you know, broadly speaking, is the fact that kids just come to school with so many needs that that go beyond the capacity, really, even of most educators to figure out. Like I don't know how to help this kid's got, you know, wild stuff happening at home or has is coming with a, with some sort of sort of you know, learning disability or challenges that that I don't know how to handle. So I mean, I mean, again, we can go down a whole rabbit hole of what that should entail.

Speaker 2: 15:26

For sure there's, there's supports needed, but just the acknowledgement that all right, um, I'm, I have this lesson plan today and I've got three kids here who are just like, it's just not going to happen, like, and I remember, I remember as a teacher fighting that and I'm going to, I'm going to make you learn this, whether you're ready to or not, and that was just a poor choice on my part. So I think I think part of that is just acknowledging that maybe not everybody's there and you know, I really I think where I I believe I struggle with but I believe is important, is like the invitation to learn. So learning is an invitation. So I'm going to create the, the, you know, put out the smorgasbord of opportunity and learning and invite you to. There's three of them that they're just not there today. Okay, so what else? They're not coming to the smorgasbord? What could I bring them? Could I bring them a bowl of soup or something that might pique their interest? They might not eat the whole thing, but they'll get something.

Speaker 2: 16:31

And I think you know, again, I'm simplifying something that's really really challenging, complex, but at least in my mind, I think I give myself permission to know that maybe not every kid is in a position to learn today or in this space, and that's not necessarily on me, it's not necessarily on them, it's just the way that it is. And how might we go about figuring out a way to help them right? And again, once you've sort of laid that foundation of acknowledgement, then yeah, okay, so who can support me in this and what else do I need? I don't have the capacity or the bandwidth or knowledge to be able to solve this, but maybe others could. And so again, just sort of piggies back on the idea of community more broadly than just in a classroom, but in a school or a school district where I know people can have my back and say like I don't know, I got a challenge here, so I need some help. And hopefully you've got to, you work someplace where people are willing and able to help you.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Absolutely. You know it's interesting. I was talking with my team yesterday and we were talking a lot about AI, you know. I mean it's such a hot topic now and kind of like how that could help and assist teachers as well, and we were looking at the idea of chatbots that are subject specific or, you know, cross-curricular or like just to spark ideas sometimes and it's such a big topic. But what's your feeling about AI and maybe some of the misconceptions that are out there about what it can actually do for us in education to make our lives easier and to support the kids in a better way?

Speaker 2: 18:11

Well, I mean, that's been my world really for the last year and a half. So I feel pretty strongly about and what at least having the conversation about, and what I'll say right off the bat is I am very much on the fence of this, in that I don't I don't ever advocate, hey, this is going to revolutionize, transform all the kinds of, uh, hyper hyperbole that people throw at it. I'm not, not, I'm not quite there yet, maybe I will never get there, and I'm very much aware because when you, when you start down that road, my mind goes immediately and I realize that's not exactly what you're, what you're suggesting, but I think about some of the you know, recent news around the Eliza effect and anthropomorphism of these bots, where kids are seeing them as humans, and all of the really, really bad outcomes that happen from that. So I start with sort of just acknowledging there's dangers in this and am working and will continue to work to at least be literate among that, because whether or not you use that chatbot in your classroom or not, those kids are using it in snapchat and and and other tools and so they need, they need adults and they need, uh, wise people that can help them navigate that. But but, um, I think it. Leon furzey says that you know we need to teach kids the, the dangers and the challenges that come with these things, that they, they, they are inherently unsafe. And yet to cheat somehow, to use it anyway, right, right, like it's, it's kind of that, it's kind of that dichotomy and and I mean I know it almost sounds, you know, like it doesn't even make sense, like you know these are dangerous but yet you're still going to use them and the and the answer is yes, because there are ways that they can make a difference. And I mean you and I, both having, you know, utilize these tools in agents in certain ways, have already seen like, oh, there's a lot of benefit here, we just have to tread super, super carefully. But you know, and really begin to have.

Speaker 2: 20:13

I think part of it is you know, and again, I think we look back at what happened with social media and kind of how that didn't go well and a lot of us, including myself, saw social media when in the early days, as, wow, what a way to democratize learning and so many things. Everybody had a voice and that's the good news. Everybody had a voice. The bad news is, everybody had a voice and we didn't do a whole lot to put guardrails in place and work with our students to teach them. Other than you know, the only thing we did was saying, well, putting stuff online is bad, and that was like that was not a particularly useful position to take.

Speaker 2: 20:53

So I think we're seeing this as like let's not do the same thing with kids, so so what I say to that is let's be very intentional about wrestling with the ethical dilemmas that come with using these tools. So the chat bot, as you pointed out, like what could that do in a? And I and I listen, I've seen examples you've you've probably seen them too where teachers are talking, but I got 36 kids in my classroom and how might I use a chat bot to support four kids that are just waiting for me or can't find the answers, and to help them, kind of you know, continue to learn and keep going and all of those kinds of things? So so I think there's and again there's, there's lots of ways, and I think I'm I'm confident with thoughtful and caring teachers, to implement this in very, very targeted, specific ways, not opening up the gates and saying, all right, let's go, let's throw it out here. But let's look at things really, really carefully and try certain things and analyze whether or not that was good. And I'll give you an example. So I'm teaching I just finished teaching a grad class this semester and you know, my AI sort of statement was like I don't care how you use it, you just have to document how you're using it, tell me and these are all teachers and principals, and so they're, you know, they're looking at it, they're both students, but they're also, you know, educators.

Speaker 2: 22:18

So they have they have a couple of lenses that they're looking at this from. And you know there was a point where they were submitting some initial their projects that they were going to do, and they and I was giving them feedback. I used AI to get feedback for them. And then I, you know I went in and added my own things, but I told them very transparently. I said, look, just so you know I used AI for this, but I want you to tell me how you feel about that. Did that bother you Did that? Did that feel like I was cheating? I was just very open with them and I didn't hear any negative things. I heard a number of them said well, I assumed you would use AI, like, of course, and you know, the output was such that, like, the feedback was better than what I would have given them, because they saw things that I didn't see.

Speaker 1: 23:06

And then I added things that I saw, so it was a joint effort.

Speaker 2: 23:07

But that's an example of I mean, it was really helpful, but I still I'm still cautious and still engaged in like and if someone had come back to me and said, like I didn't like that, that bothered me, that you used AI, I wanted to hear from you, even if it may not have been as good, I would have been completely cool with that response. But that's just an example of, I think, the way we have to deal with this moving forward. It's little baby steps, trying things, but just being ready to wrestle with the dilemmas that come from it.

Speaker 1: 23:37

Absolutely. I think, too, those conversations that you're talking about are super important to have for for educators, before we kind of like open those doors up to to to for our students and I agree with you, students are using it anyway outside of class and our focus has been let's look at teachers and how we can support them so that they have more knowledge to when it's time for them to talk with their kids, at least they have some kind of it's not based on you know thoughts or beliefs or or you know opinions, that it's based on stuff that is actual um, and that those conversations, if we don't have exactly what you were saying, the social media thing will happen all over again, where we kind of miss the boat on that. Yeah, so having those conversations and pushing it, I think that's why it's such a hot topic. As you said, for the last year and a half it's just been that's what we've been talking about in education.

Speaker 1: 24:32

I find, too, that the conversations from your podcast kind of to just bring it I want to bring it back to the podcast as we wrap things up here, Dean, because I've been listening to them and I just really, really appreciate that you span across not only Canada but you're reaching out to others and it's very much of a leadership kind of approach to it or a lens that you're looking through with this latest podcast that you're doing, the Canadian Ed Leadership Show. What have been your greatest surprises about this podcast? I think you're at 70, some odd episodes as well, right.

Speaker 2: 25:14

Yeah, just about. I think I'm at 69 or 70. Amazing.

Speaker 1: 25:16

What are your feelings about that? I can remember 69 or 70.

Speaker 2: 25:18

Amazing, what are your feelings about that. Yeah, well, again, the goal was really to highlight Canada as being a leader in education. I mean, for years it was Pasi Solberg talking about Finland. Even Pasi Solberg herself says maybe we should be looking at Canada and I think we as Canadians, we underestimate our impact and our education system because those of us who are in it are spending so much of our time trying to continue to make it better, which is great and part of our ethos and culture.

Speaker 2: 25:47

But you know, to pause and actually reflect on you know we do a lot of things really well. That was my goal. Part of it was like just to say, like, look at right across from and, by the way, I still don't have anyone from newfoundland on my show. So I've been reaching out to people. So if you can hook me up with a newfoundland person, I'd love to have them. But every other province I've I've hit and covered and, and it just time after time. You know I'm just, you're just so impressed. I mean I've, I've had that experience in my, in my, you know, especially you know, my 12 years since I've left our local school district. Traveling around, I just meet so many really, really thoughtful, caring people so that I would say was not a surprise what I would point to, a couple of episodes that I that highlight kind of like and sort of.

Speaker 2: 26:35

My most viewed episode was the one I did with Superintendent CEO Matt Henderson of Winnipeg School Division, and I've known Matt. I knew Matt 12 years ago. I met him in Winnipeg when he was a social studies teacher at the time. Okay, and Matt talked about love. He talked about like you can't do this without love, and love is not a word we use that freely in education, right, because it's we maybe think we're, I don't know, is it crossing lines Like not really love, but like he's not. He was not afraid to use love. I love my people and I want to was really powerful.

Speaker 2: 27:13

And then, similarly, but in a little different twist, mark Perrimane of Surrey School District in British Columbia said that leadership is fun and that's not something that we are in a bit of a leadership crisis in education that we're having that we're not getting as many people interested in leadership because of how difficult the job. And it's the same thing with teachers, right, we're just not getting as many teachers. It's the leadership job you know people are looking at and going like I just don't want to do that job because it looks really hard and taxing. And so one of the things that I think flips that is leaders like Mark and others who visibly show they're enjoying what they're doing, like you look at them and say like, hey, that guy's having fun, she's really doing a great job. I think I want to be like her in the way they're doing that, and sometimes that's, you know, you have to kind of be thoughtful about that. So I think that's that's something.

Speaker 2: 28:13

And then I, you know the other thing I always try to, you know, I try to get at who they are, who these people are as people. So my latest, one of my latest ones, is with JB Malley, and I know JB, so he I knew. Part of what I love about him is he used to be a ball boy for the Vancouver Grizzlies, so he's telling stories about, like talking to Shaquille O'Neal and Michael Jordan and then Tom D'Amico from Ottawa Catholic, like he works for the NHL and so like all these little extra things that people do, which is, you know, I, like I said you mentioned, I had another podcast outside the classroom which was like again, this goes back to my my statement before about being an interesting person. So these are interesting people, right, like they're not.

Speaker 2: 28:49

It's not just about what they do in the educations, like they're they're. They have interesting ideas and passions and and and you know, things they pursue outside that. And then you know, like every educator, you make connections between all that time I did this outside, like here's how it relates, you never shut your brain off fully and they always making those connections. So that's, yeah, it's. It's just been amazing to you know, and I'm excited to kind of keep going on it and sort of expanding the show. But yeah, that's definitely been some highlights.

Speaker 1: 29:24

Do you have any guests that are coming down the pipe that you can share with us that you're excited about?

Speaker 2: 29:30

Well, she's not confirmed yet, so I'm not. I want to say, just because I'm hopeful, she said she would do it and we have to reconnect, but I don't know if you're familiar with Nora Jones from CBC Spark. Yes, you know that and again, like now I'm now I'm expanding the definition of, you know, an educational leader. I mean, she's not in education, but you know, she's somebody who's been producing content that all you know, if you're in lots, of, lots of things. Her topics are education related and it's about technology and its impact on society, which, just broadly speaking, is education. And so excited to do that and I think that's that's kind of what I'm hoping, maybe in 2025 is to add some people who aren't typical educators, but people who are influence, are influencers in that space and people that we kind of look up to. So, yeah, that's somebody that I'm looking forward to.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Yeah, Awesome, awesome. Well, it's a great show. I recommend listeners to subscribe and check out the Canadian Ed Leadership Show. Great stuff on there already a ton of episodes so you can go back in time and spend a bit of the holiday season catching up on some thoughts From play to joy to love. It's been a great conversation, dean. I thank you so much for carving a bit of time out and sharing your thoughts. It's been really fun talking with you, so thank you for joining me.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Well, hey, thank you. Thank you, chris, I appreciate you Again. I know you've done a lot of good work and I checked a number of episodes of people that I'm pretty familiar with John Spencer and George Koros and a few others that are good friends of mine so it's great work you're doing. So I think there's there's never enough of these for us to do, for us to do and share and highlight, um, you know, really positive things in education.

Speaker 1: 31:22

So thank you for what you're doing, thank you for having me on the show. Oh, it's been a pleasure, real pleasure. I wish you a great uh rest too, and holiday season, and, um, I mean, keep fighting the good fight and uh, this has been a lot of fun. So thanks again.

Speaker 2: 31:33

Yes.