Chris: 0:13

shifted podcast. Coming back at you guys, um, we're actually reaching across the pond here to germany, um, and I have ryan jenkins who's coming in, famous tinkerer at the Exploratorium, has his own, co-founded his own company, wonderful idea company. So, ryan, thanks so much for hopping on here and talking to us about what you do.

Ryan: 0:38

Thanks, chris, I'm really excited to be here.

Chris: 0:40

Yeah, I'm so happy that you took me up on this. I mean, we've spoken in the past but we've never actually sat down your heart and your head together to create. Where did all that start to come together for you as a professional?

Ryan: 1:14

Yeah, I think for a long time I always enjoyed working with kids.

Ryan: 1:19

Some of my first jobs when I was growing up in high school and college I worked in summer camps, I worked as a teaching assistant in a third grade classroom, so I always had this feeling that I had fun being around kids, I had fun playing, doing games and things like that.

Ryan: 1:39

And then I actually applied, working at the Exploratorium Science Center in San Francisco Basically the year after I graduated from university, and it was really a bit of a whim and it was a bit of a unexpected thing for me, because I really didn't like science at all and I didn't feel like it was for me. And I didn't feel like it was for me and I felt like this was something that was only about getting the right answer, only about filling out the test and the lab form. But you know, I had gone to the Expl years. I started to see science and engineering and math and art as ways of exploring the world and you know, the amazing thing about the environment is you're just surrounded by artists and makers and exhibit designers and master teachers and it's like a full immersion in this world of um, what science can be, what art can be and that this is a way of understanding the world, and I got really excited about that and kind of decided I wanted to do that for, uh, for the rest of my life, for the rest of my career.

Ryan: 3:03

Yeah, right.

Chris: 3:04

Was it exciting when you first um started working Exploratorium? Was that like where, first of all, you must have been super excited that they offered you employment? And and what was it like, those beginning, you know, months, year of kind of figuring out, tinkering, and and, yeah, how their approach to it um seeped into your um psyche yeah no, I mean I really was.

Ryan: 3:31

I really was amazed.

Ryan: 3:32

I mean, I I got the chance to work with some of the artists who were there from the very beginning.

Ryan: 3:39

Um, I remember I had the chance to go on a light walk with the artist called Bob Miller who was there basically from the beginning of the Exploratorium, and he took us on this half an hour 45 minute stroll around the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco where the Exploratorium used to be.

Ryan: 4:05

Go where the Exploratorium used to be and just started looking at the way that light was traveling through the trees and reflecting off the water and the shadows and the images and you know, just like a door opened up and I said, wow, like there's all these things that are in the world that you never notice, and that's really fascinating, it's really interesting. And I think you know, in the same way, it was really eye opening to me when I started working with the tinkering group there, with Mike Petrich and Karen Wilkinson who direct the program, that they really introduced this process of building and exploring materials, of building and exploring materials and again seeing things in a way that you wouldn't have expected, like a bunch of wood and funnels and masking tape and clothes pins, you know, using that to create a marble run that really expressed your ideas and all the things you tried and you tested, which is so, so fascinating for me, and I think this idea of making something, building something, expressing your ideas through physical objects, I got really, I got really excited about that.

Chris: 5:25

It reminds me a little bit, as you're saying that, of loose parts, for, like our youngest learners, you know like we always tend to kind of encourage whatever you can find, just give it to the kids and they'll figure out a way to play with it. They don't need much prompting, um. But this is kind of like the next step.

Chris: 5:43

It's level up, tinkering, finding materials so that they, you, create something new and I think great stuff with at exploratorium too, which you were kind of touching on is exploring balance, exploring light and shadow, like those types of things, like I feel like would be so beneficial, um, for students class. What do you think about that?

Ryan: 6:07

Yeah, no, I was just going to say while you were talking. It reminds me of another mentor of mine, mitchell Resnick at the MIT Media Lab, and their group is called Lifelong Kindergarten, and this idea that the way that we learn in kindergarten playing with materials, exploring balance, building structures, playing with light and shadow that's actually a valid way of learning throughout life and it's important for older children, it's important for high school students, it's important for adults and I really agree with the philosophy of the Lifelong Kindergarten group that, unfortunately, it sometimes seems now that kindergarten is becoming more like regular school or more like real life, and I see, actually the opposite would be really valuable if in real life and in the rest of the school year uh, school time that kids have we could do more things with that approach of um, of kindergarten, of exploration, of playing.

Chris: 7:19

I think that's, you know, for me that's the best way to learn and learn, and it's um, it's the way of learning where you're really you care about what you're doing, and I think that's so important, uh well to get that engagement absolutely, and and we we have tons of research that say play is the way for our youngest learners to learn and that if you're not, it's going to hinder them down the road that it's so necessary a part of their development, all little humans. And I want to ask you like I always ask this at workshops like what does play mean to you, you know? And oftentimes it kind of the teachers are like what do you mean, you know? And oftentimes it kind of the teachers are like what do you mean, you know? Like such a simple word, we use it all the time in different contexts what does play mean to you?

Ryan: 8:14

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think that the play that is in a tinkering activity has to do with prototyping and testing. It has to do with trying things out. It has to do with trying things out even if you don't know what's going to happen. To say, let's just see what will happen if we move this part or we change this object.

Ryan: 8:46

So I think there's something about this not focusing on the end product but focusing on the process that you go through when you're playing. When you're deeply involved in the flow state of playing, there isn't really like a reason, there isn't a point. You're engaged, you're having fun, you're collaborating with others, you're working as a team, and so I think play brings you into that mode where you can really deeply engage in a process and really lose yourself in that exploration, and I think that often leads to really interesting discoveries and maybe new questions that you didn't think about before you started you're really making this connection now, because I play a lot with loose parts For youngest learners and that transfer over now it's starting to make sense to me that can help me throughout Really, not necessarily just in school, but just discovering and seeing them in different ways.

Chris: 10:01

We talk a lot about repurposing and there's so much stuff out there Thrown Instead of um, and some of your activities, like, or your workshops, like, I was looking at the chain reaction, one that looks like a ton of fun that you do um, how does that unfold like? I'm just so curious about like, because it seems like family gets involved. It's a huge space too that you provide and everybody's building their own, but it seems like it's a collaboration as well, because everybody has one little couple feet in the chain reaction. What are those workshops like for you?

Ryan: 10:43

Yeah, I was just talking about with the team. A couple weeks ago I was collaborating with another group called Tinker Tank and we did this giant chain reaction at the Ars Electronica Festival at Linz. So that's really fresh in my mind. This workshop sense that usually the way we set it up is that there is a huge pathway for the machine to go down. We have a starting point, we have an ending point, we have stations for people to work, but beyond that we don't really know what's going to happen. It's really up to the participants, it's up to the people who come in. Traditionally, what I've done is when people come into the space, their station starts with a domino falling down and they can do anything they want on the table as long as they knock the domino at the end of their table down, which is aligned with the next group. So basically, we usually take care of the transitions, these domino inputs and outputs, and people make whatever they want in the middle.

Ryan: 12:07

The interesting thing about this chain reaction that we just did in Lintz was that we had some stations like that, but we also did things that were more free form. So we had parts of the chain reaction that were taped to the wall we had a huge tire that was rolling down. I spent half an hour half an hour 45 minutes with a 10 year old girl. It was her birthday and she drilled together a big wooden ramp for a car to go down. And it was like she was just so engaged and like, at the end of the time, like her dress and her feet were just like covered in sawdust and dirt and like she was so happy and her parents were so happy, and I think there was something really powerful about the fact that we kind of broke the framework of the chain reaction activity.

Ryan: 13:14

But, that being said, I think that for educators, this workshop brings up a lot of questions about freedom versus structure, and I think that it's a misconception that a tinkering activity or a playful activity is just like put a whole bunch of stuff out, let people do whatever they want, no rules. I don't think that works very well. I don't feel like there's so much, you know, I don't think that that's the best chance for real discoveries and ideas and iteration to happen. So I think this chain reaction is really interesting because, on one hand, it is one of the most open activities that you can make whatever you want in your space. But I also think that it's really important that, as facilitators, we're providing structure.

Ryan: 14:18

What is the goal of the entire workshop? How are you contributing to something bigger? Where are you starting? What is your goal? How long do you have to work? When are we going to set off this giant chain reaction? And you know, this was an experiment, like all of our workshops are. I don't think we did everything perfectly, but I think we're always kind of moving back and forth these sliders of how much freedom, how much constraints, where do you open things up, where do you narrow things down? And I think, at least for me, that's what I find really fascinating about um, leading these activities as a, as a facilitator, as a designer, that there's so many things about the environment, the materials, the examples, the prompts, that, um, that you can play with and you can adjust.

Chris: 15:14

You know in a way too. I mean, I think that the educators are excellent question askers as well, in that it kind of like you're not giving the answers but you're giving a little bit more of them to think. And I mean all the amazing teachers I worked with career, the ones that ask the best questions, have much more student engagement, much more onus on student interaction, and they simply ask the amazing't know what to expect, and this open-endedness sometimes kills a hell of a lot of people, but I always find that after 10 minutes, 15 minutes, they've kind of shaken it all off and then come back and start to understand a little bit about the mindset behind it, because it has to shift Right.

Chris: 16:19

I mean having an open mindset versus, example, a closed mindset where you feel limited in what you can do, as opposed to I can do. Anything my mind to is powerful realizations for students to come into. Do you observe that, like when you were talking about the, the, the chain reaction and that girl was creating her ramp and everything Like, did you find that there was nothing within her constraint, like everything was possible, or did she have to have a lot of support through you, along or other people?

Ryan: 16:58

yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean it's, it's a great question. It's another thing that we, I think you have to practice a lot when you are facilitating these activities. Um, and yeah, I think it's really important that there is an educator in the space that is friendly, that is welcoming, that I always ask kids like what's your name? My name is Ryan, I'm going to show you what we're doing here, and just having these kind of I mean for me it's also an authentic connection. I mean like I would do with anyone to introduce myself. So I think those kind of initial just welcoming to the space and letting people know that they're welcome here, they can participate, there's a place for them, I think that's really important.

Ryan: 17:52

And then, you know, I usually think about having this first initial success and that can look different in a lot of activities, but you know I usually stay with people until they've put something together that they're like oh, it works now. Or oh, cool, like that that happened. And I feel like once people get to that point, you know, maybe for this girl it's like I, I screwed two, um, uh screws into the, you know, into this ramp and now it stands like it's sturdy, it's stuck. You know, just that feeling Like I made something that's stuck, it's strong, it's a support, like I think that makes you feel good and then usually you can build on that, you know, and then again I think it's really a lot of practice.

Ryan: 18:42

I mean, I think also for me, the best facilitators, the best educators are asking questions. Sometimes they're just observing, you know, sometimes they're just watching to see what people need. Some of the facilitators that I've learned the most from do so much by just handing someone a material, making an offer, like I think that's really the key that you know, I don't want to direct people's process. I don't want to direct people's process. I don't want to control what they're doing and what their ideas are, but I think offering a suggestion, offering an idea, offering a question, I think those can really help keep people engaged in the process.

Chris: 19:30

Well said, man, well said. So you were at the Explor, and then you, you, you, ventured out on your own. Can I is that safe to say with with the wonderful idea company, um, what's the um, what's the crux behind this company? What do you, what, what, what, what do you hope to achieve? Can?

Ryan: 19:59

you kind of share those, those ideas with the listeners?

Ryan: 20:07

Yeah, I think that you know, for me, really getting immersed in this tinkering mindset, in this maker's mindset, I felt that there came a point where to grow in what I was doing.

Ryan: 20:14

I really wanted to be independent, kind of be involved in all the aspects of the projects, find out what it's like to really have collaborations, try new things, move quickly, move quickly. Originally, I actually started with another artist at the Exploratorium, nicole Cotrett, and we were working together for a while with Wonderful Idea Company and I think that for me, the goal is really to stay involved in the practice of designing activities, facilitating activities, trying new prototypes, trying new ideas and also, at the same time, personally getting a deeper understanding of how things work, of how to set up a collaboration, how to interface with a school or with a company. I think that's been really interesting for me about Wonderful Idea Company and we've now it's basically myself and a rotating cast of people that I collaborate with artists and facilitators and we do a combination of workshops for educators, large festival activities, designing prototypes, working with museums, working with schools, really trying to see how many different ways we can create resources for people to engage in these tinkering projects.

Chris: 21:58

And what surprised you the most about kind of venturing off on your own and, you know, having that control over more of what goes on in your company. What were your biggest surprises?

Ryan: 22:15

I think that the I mean I think there is that's a good question. I think there is a sense of looking behind the curtain. You know, when you are involved in all the aspects of the project, you see a bit more what the goals of the partner you're working with are, what the goals of the facilitators or the people you're working with. I think you have more of that holistic view and I think that's been really interesting for me to kind of see the behind the scenes side of that. And then I don't know, I mean I think you know you say surprising.

Ryan: 23:00

I mean I think for me it's just surprising how personally I don't know what's the word like engaging it is to be in this world. I mean I feel that now I've been doing this as an independent consultant for seven or eight years, so I'm a little bit more balanced. But you know, I think in the beginning you're just so, you're so invested in like will this project happen? Will this project happen? Does this person want to work with me? And of course, in the real world, like there's a million ideas and there's a million projects and some things work and some things don't. But I feel that, like, um, it takes a while, at least for me when I became a, a freelancer to kind of ride that wave of like uh, something not going according to plan and then something great happening and then something you know, and to kind of do that in a balanced way. I think you know surprising how intense that can be.

Chris: 24:07

Cool observation yeah, seven years, eight, seven, eight years.

Ryan: 24:11

Something like that, yeah.

Chris: 24:14

And I do want to talk about your book. So you have this great new book coming out, the tinkering Workshop Explore, invent and Build with Every Day. How did this all come to be this book? How did it start? And tell us about it, because it's coming out in October, I think Ryan Is that accurate.

Ryan: 24:34

Yeah, it's coming out on October 15th, so we're about three weeks away, as're talking from the release date, and it came about. Actually, I was approached by Story Publishing, by an editor there. She had seen some of the writing I did about tinkering projects. One of the things that I've always been really passionate about and interested in is writing blogs writing about the thing, you know, the works in progress, writing about the things that we're doing. So she saw some of the uh, the blog posts that that I was I was doing and we started thinking about how could we put together a book that inspires people and gives them motivation to try tinkering projects, to uh, you know, get hands-on with materials. Um, you know, get hands-on with materials.

Ryan: 25:45

Um, and we went through different iterations of different plans and I'm really excited about the way that things turned out, because the way the book is set up is there's 20 materials highlights, so it's kind of organized by clothespin, wire, ball bearing, recycled cup, and so that's kind of the highlighted materials and there's a lot of easy starting points, things that you can just pick up a recycled paper cup and start making something. Recycle a paper cup and start making something. Then there's these playful explorations that we put together and that was also, I think, a something new, something that we had to figure out how to do together. Where a tinkering exploration is not step by step you know, I really cared in this book where a tinkering exploration is not step by step. You know, I really cared in this book that you don't get the feeling of do step A, do step B, do step C, and then everyone gets to the same thing.

Ryan: 26:50

So you know, in each project we do have a materials list, we have a couple first steps, but the majority of each page is a large spread with a lot of these questions, facilitator tips, things that I might say to people doing these workshops. We tried as much as we could to have multiple examples. So if we're making balancing objects, I think there's five different possibilities that we show on the page and hopefully what that means is that people will then do the sixth possibility and the seventh possibility. You know, it's really an experiment for me to try to put the facilitation, the examples, the prompts from a workshop in this book form. But the thing that I really hope for is that when people get this book, they will be inspired to make something that I wouldn't have expected and that I don't know. They're not making the thing that I'm my idea. Hopefully they get inspired to explore their own ideas and try something new using these prompts and materials.

Chris: 28:08

Sounds like you took a ton of seeds out of the mountain and are like, hey, some will grow if you water them and nurture them, but the balls in your court, which I love that. Do you think that if a teacher got this book that they would have the capacity, even if they've never tried it before, of doing some kind of tinkering project? That this book would help support them along that journey?

Ryan: 28:38

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, we put together the book with in the mind of kids and parents working together around the kitchen table, but actually I think that makes it even more accessible to teachers because we're not using much technology, we're not using specialized parts and tools. Most of the things are with everyday materials, recycled parts, and I think that if a teacher got the book and just started trying one of the activities, I think that is the best way to go. I mean, I think that getting the materials trying, you know, showing the, showing the examples, showing the page to the students, and just seeing what happens, I I think that that people would learn a tremendous amount about their students, about the classroom, about what's possible, and then again, hopefully, they take it in new directions, you know, and they decide okay, for a fifth grade class, I would tweak it this way and for a kindergarten I would do it in a different way.

Ryan: 29:54

You know, we put together a educator's guide also for the book, and that was something that I was highlighting that these projects could look really differently. In a classroom it could be set up in a table for free play, you know, before or after the session. It could be something that takes an entire classroom period. But I also think some of these projects could be explorations that last for weeks or months. I mean I think a class investigating windmills or electricity with switches and aluminum foil. I mean these things could build on each other over time and I would be really interested to see what would happen in a classroom or an after-school program if these prompts got expanded out and people went really deep on them.

Chris: 30:57

Well, I'm going to do that for you, so I'll let you know how it goes.

Ryan: 31:00

That'd be great, that would be great.

Chris: 31:02

I'm so excited to dive into, get into schools and start tinkering again. It's the summer, it's done. It's so amazing, right? Thanks so much for your words and and sharing your thoughts on tinkering and and open-endedness, getting kids to play and stuff, materials, ideas. It really kind of throws out that whole wonder, you know, I wonder, which is so appreciated, because I do think our kids need more of that connection between their hands, their hearts, what they experience and also their cognitive brains as well, and it all just kind of leaves beautiful tinkerage which can go on. So thanks so much for sharing that and I can't wait for this book. People, october, get it, order it, open it up and get your kids doing some of this stuff. They'll thank you. So, ryan, I'm going to thank you now for coming and spending some time. This has been so fun talking with you and I hope that we touch base again soon. Maybe after the book We'll see what the next things Well, thanks, chris.

Ryan: 32:15

It was really a pleasure talking with you and, yeah, I look forward to learning a lot from you and from other educators and kids and parents about what they do with these ideas. So thanks so much for having me.